7 ms·

That all sounds rather discusting and fake. If that's what most people do, I don't want to know them.

pedrolll 15y ago
It is written like an alien studying human interaction. Some of what was written is decent advice but it comes off as off-putting.
- Meai 15y ago
  What is off putting is calling someone an alien and disgusting.
  - gnaritas 15y ago
    Actually, I agree with him, it's written like a study of human's and it comes off very disgusting.
lurker19 15y ago
I felt the same way for a long time. But you have to ask, to good things happen for you because the world is fair, or because you are a rainmaker, or because you are lucky enough that a rainmaker loves you? My parents were rainmakers, which was great except that I took too long to realize it, including the time I spent at one of the most rewarding networking-intensive organizations in the world, and I refused to network. Eventually I realized that I was taking advantage of a social structure that someone built for me, but I wasn't helping builds it further. At first, I was just guilty of a self-centered selfishness. Later, the free ride slowed down. Now it is up to me to help the wheels turn, or just coast to a stop. Networking isn't evil. It is a tool you can use for good or evil. Networks are not free, but they can tolerate someone free riding temporarily. You once had to learn to use a toilet and wash dishes and write thank-you notes, too. If you don't do directly yourself, you depend on someone to slaughter animals or pull vegetableout out of the ground (someone who expects something on return) that all disgusting and fake?
- EGreg 15y ago
  well said :)
- gnaritas 15y ago
  This all presumes networking is necessary; it isn't. I don't have to do it at all.
  - akat 15y ago
    Care to elaborate? OR you (think) don't have to do that either? :)
    - gnaritas 15y ago
      Elaborate on what? It's perfectly possible to live a happy life without putting an ounce of effort into actively networking. You meet people through happenstance without ever thinking "how can I use this person". We don't all look at other people as means to an end. I don't recommend people because I hope they'll recommend me back or because I'm thinking about building a social structure; I do it if and when it'd help the person I'm recommending them to if and when it'd be natural to do so. Watching you guys talk about building the social structure and networking reminds me of watching a psychopath try to fit in with normal people and learn when it's appropriate to smile or fake emotion. You're talking about actively learning to manipulate people to your advantage, I just don't find that cool, even if it is to everyone's advantage.
caseysoftware 15y ago
Many people do that, but that's not the structure or intent around it at all. When you meet someone you like and find out their interests/passions: - when you meet someone else with similar interests/passions, introduce them. - when you see an article that would spark their interest, share it. - when you see an event that fits them, pass it along. - when you see them, ask about how their projects are going. It's not out of some crappy "I want to network" motivation, but because you like them. And generally we want to help & encourage the people we like.
- gnaritas 15y ago
  That I do, that's not what he's describing to me.
EGreg 15y ago
I thought this way for a while too, although not about everything. Actually some things can be really fake while others are actually simply thoughtful! It's the way you are taught to think about it. Let me give you a small example. You know about etiquette right? In every country it's different. Are you manipulating people because you behave differently at Church/Synagogue/etc. and in a bar, or with your parents, or at a dinner table? Are you manipulating people by trying to learn their language and making sure you talk about what's important to THEM an not just whats important to you? I am sure that put this way, you think it's actually all good things. Yet, once we start going further and looking at it more mechanically, it starts to seem disgusting to you and to many people. Perhaps it has to do with the Uncanny Valley actually. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uncanny_valley http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uncanny_valley Here is the thing. You want people to not be systematic and strategic to a large extent when meeting other people, except where everyone in society is already being shamed into doing it. Why? I think it is because when someone becomes systematic and strategic, then any particular interaction seems like it's just a pawn in a larger scheme, doesn't mean as much to the one being strategic, and for the most part this is unfortunately true. On the other hand, greater mastery over a domain lets you make better moves, and over time gives you more connections and more experience so that you can actually HELP people in ways you couldn't before. An experienced salesman can sell your pretty good product that you couldn't sell yourself, and you can rely on him to do so, even though you might think his sales tactics are "scammy" at first blush. A person who knows a lot of people after many years is able to connect you to the right people even though they have such a large network that you can't possibly imagine they have close relationships with most of them, yet they help you and you appreciate it. Winston Churchill made sure to remember the name and interests of each person he spoke to at dinners. Is he being manipulative and strategic? Maybe. But people loved him. I think the bottom line here is this: forget the "stigma" that society forces you to attach to actually putting thought and strategy into achieving things when it comes to meeting people, organizing things, etc. If you are producing a result that HELPS EVERYONE INVOLVED, then you are actually doing a good thing. The litmus test is, if you encountered someone who was a master at what you are trying to do, would you be HAPPY that they did this to you, or NOT happy? I think most of it is about being aware of what the other person really needs and wants, and working to give it to them. For example when a nightclub promoter invites you (a guy) what he really would like is for you to bring a girl or two to the event, so more alcohol will be sold. If you don't, he may be glad you came but ultimately if you did, he would be way happier because you are helping him. You may say, "well, you USED the girls to get more points with the promoter". But you also USED the promoter to help the girls! They all get free drinks and a great time, and meet more people. And they also think you are a cool guy that they had a great time with that night. So everyone wants to see you again. Look at the suggestion at the end of my post. Do you really consider it creepy that you take your friends' business cards, ask them who they are desperately looking to meet, and actually talk them up to people whenever you feel that you might make a good match? And then ask your friends to do the same once you have made some results for them? Is it weird that you have a group of guys who remember to meet girls for their friends and invite them all to a big house party so they can introduce their friends and generally hang out and have a good time? Is "every man for himself" the only non fake strategy? Or is it actually MORE fake? The guy has to generate all the social proof out of thin air, and at the end of the day, the first strategy attracts people far more, because a group of cool people who respect each other is more attractive. Why not be part of one.

It is written like an alien studying human interaction. Some of what was written is decent advice but it comes off as off-putting.

Meai 15y ago
What is off putting is calling someone an alien and disgusting.
- gnaritas 15y ago
  Actually, I agree with him, it's written like a study of human's and it comes off very disgusting.

lurker19 15y ago

I felt the same way for a long time. But you have to ask, to good things happen for you because the world is fair, or because you are a rainmaker, or because you are lucky enough that a rainmaker loves you? My parents were rainmakers, which was great except that I took too long to realize it, including the time I spent at one of the most rewarding networking-intensive organizations in the world, and I refused to network. Eventually I realized that I was taking advantage of a social structure that someone built for me, but I wasn't helping builds it further. At first, I was just guilty of a self-centered selfishness. Later, the free ride slowed down. Now it is up to me to help the wheels turn, or just coast to a stop. Networking isn't evil. It is a tool you can use for good or evil. Networks are not free, but they can tolerate someone free riding temporarily. You once had to learn to use a toilet and wash dishes and write thank-you notes, too. If you don't do directly yourself, you depend on someone to slaughter animals or pull vegetableout out of the ground (someone who expects something on return) that all disgusting and fake?

EGreg 15y ago
well said :)
gnaritas 15y ago
This all presumes networking is necessary; it isn't. I don't have to do it at all.
- akat 15y ago
  Care to elaborate? OR you (think) don't have to do that either? :)
  - gnaritas 15y ago
    Elaborate on what? It's perfectly possible to live a happy life without putting an ounce of effort into actively networking. You meet people through happenstance without ever thinking "how can I use this person". We don't all look at other people as means to an end. I don't recommend people because I hope they'll recommend me back or because I'm thinking about building a social structure; I do it if and when it'd help the person I'm recommending them to if and when it'd be natural to do so. Watching you guys talk about building the social structure and networking reminds me of watching a psychopath try to fit in with normal people and learn when it's appropriate to smile or fake emotion. You're talking about actively learning to manipulate people to your advantage, I just don't find that cool, even if it is to everyone's advantage.

caseysoftware 15y ago

Many people do that, but that's not the structure or intent around it at all. When you meet someone you like and find out their interests/passions: - when you meet someone else with similar interests/passions, introduce them. - when you see an article that would spark their interest, share it. - when you see an event that fits them, pass it along. - when you see them, ask about how their projects are going. It's not out of some crappy "I want to network" motivation, but because you like them. And generally we want to help & encourage the people we like.

gnaritas 15y ago
That I do, that's not what he's describing to me.

EGreg 15y ago

I thought this way for a while too, although not about everything. Actually some things can be really fake while others are actually simply thoughtful! It's the way you are taught to think about it. Let me give you a small example. You know about etiquette right? In every country it's different. Are you manipulating people because you behave differently at Church/Synagogue/etc. and in a bar, or with your parents, or at a dinner table? Are you manipulating people by trying to learn their language and making sure you talk about what's important to THEM an not just whats important to you? I am sure that put this way, you think it's actually all good things. Yet, once we start going further and looking at it more mechanically, it starts to seem disgusting to you and to many people. Perhaps it has to do with the Uncanny Valley actually. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uncanny_valley http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uncanny_valley Here is the thing. You want people to not be systematic and strategic to a large extent when meeting other people, except where everyone in society is already being shamed into doing it. Why? I think it is because when someone becomes systematic and strategic, then any particular interaction seems like it's just a pawn in a larger scheme, doesn't mean as much to the one being strategic, and for the most part this is unfortunately true. On the other hand, greater mastery over a domain lets you make better moves, and over time gives you more connections and more experience so that you can actually HELP people in ways you couldn't before. An experienced salesman can sell your pretty good product that you couldn't sell yourself, and you can rely on him to do so, even though you might think his sales tactics are "scammy" at first blush. A person who knows a lot of people after many years is able to connect you to the right people even though they have such a large network that you can't possibly imagine they have close relationships with most of them, yet they help you and you appreciate it. Winston Churchill made sure to remember the name and interests of each person he spoke to at dinners. Is he being manipulative and strategic? Maybe. But people loved him. I think the bottom line here is this: forget the "stigma" that society forces you to attach to actually putting thought and strategy into achieving things when it comes to meeting people, organizing things, etc. If you are producing a result that HELPS EVERYONE INVOLVED, then you are actually doing a good thing. The litmus test is, if you encountered someone who was a master at what you are trying to do, would you be HAPPY that they did this to you, or NOT happy? I think most of it is about being aware of what the other person really needs and wants, and working to give it to them. For example when a nightclub promoter invites you (a guy) what he really would like is for you to bring a girl or two to the event, so more alcohol will be sold. If you don't, he may be glad you came but ultimately if you did, he would be way happier because you are helping him. You may say, "well, you USED the girls to get more points with the promoter". But you also USED the promoter to help the girls! They all get free drinks and a great time, and meet more people. And they also think you are a cool guy that they had a great time with that night. So everyone wants to see you again. Look at the suggestion at the end of my post. Do you really consider it creepy that you take your friends' business cards, ask them who they are desperately looking to meet, and actually talk them up to people whenever you feel that you might make a good match? And then ask your friends to do the same once you have made some results for them? Is it weird that you have a group of guys who remember to meet girls for their friends and invite them all to a big house party so they can introduce their friends and generally hang out and have a good time? Is "every man for himself" the only non fake strategy? Or is it actually MORE fake? The guy has to generate all the social proof out of thin air, and at the end of the day, the first strategy attracts people far more, because a group of cool people who respect each other is more attractive. Why not be part of one.