3 ms·

How do you rationalize 'the West just loves peace' (paraphrasing) with our current policy of funneling huge amounts of weapons to back an Ukrainian insurgency,

How do you rationalize 'the West just loves peace' (paraphrasing) with our current policy of funneling huge amounts of weapons to back an Ukrainian insurgency, and the resolute opposition to Ukraine surrendering and saving thousands of lives on any terms?

zozbot234 5y ago
The West has tried working with Russia before the operation. The other side was actively uncooperative (they told everyone they would retreat from the Ukrainian border, but then didn't); it's not surprising at all that mutual trust and communication would break down as a result. Even so it is basically the Ukrainians who are refusing to back down now, not necessarily the West. They hold all the cards.
- pphysch 5y ago
  > The West has tried working with Russia before the operation. What is your basis for this wild claim? Washington has actively opposed the implementation of the Minsk agreements since 2014, despite Moscow's enthusiasm for them.
  - zozbot234 5y ago
    Moscow was far from enthusiastic about the Minsk agreements. Their position has always been that they were only acting as a "mediator" not as a party, thus - conveniently enough for them - they could not be blamed if the agreements broke down. More recently, they've stated outright that the Minsk agreements are dead.
    - pphysch 5y ago
      - zozbot234 5y ago
        > Notably, they include the main clauses of the Minsk agreements This does not seem accurate. For one thing, the Minsk agreements mention particular districts of Donetz and Luhansk in their text. The change from addressing particular districts to demanding the recognition of Donetz and Luhansk as a whole (if that's not what the Russians have asked for, they've certainly not made that clear) is very significant even on its own. For all we know, these demands might just be part of a bargaining game and not seriously insisted upon - but the change from Minsk II does matter.
tim333 5y ago
You maintain peace by attacking those that break it. Letting invading dictators get away with it only encourages them.
- pphysch 5y ago
  Slippery slope fallacy.
  - tim333 5y ago
    By the way re "Ukrainian insurgency" I thought Ukraine was a sovereign country that Russia have claimed they are not even at war with?
unethical_ban 5y ago
How do you think "rewarding a warmonger for his boldness by handing him what he wants" wouldn't encourage more death later?

zozbot234 5y ago

The West has tried working with Russia before the operation. The other side was actively uncooperative (they told everyone they would retreat from the Ukrainian border, but then didn't); it's not surprising at all that mutual trust and communication would break down as a result. Even so it is basically the Ukrainians who are refusing to back down now, not necessarily the West. They hold all the cards.

pphysch 5y ago
> The West has tried working with Russia before the operation. What is your basis for this wild claim? Washington has actively opposed the implementation of the Minsk agreements since 2014, despite Moscow's enthusiasm for them.
- zozbot234 5y ago
  Moscow was far from enthusiastic about the Minsk agreements. Their position has always been that they were only acting as a "mediator" not as a party, thus - conveniently enough for them - they could not be blamed if the agreements broke down. More recently, they've stated outright that the Minsk agreements are dead.
  - pphysch 5y ago
    - zozbot234 5y ago
      > Notably, they include the main clauses of the Minsk agreements This does not seem accurate. For one thing, the Minsk agreements mention particular districts of Donetz and Luhansk in their text. The change from addressing particular districts to demanding the recognition of Donetz and Luhansk as a whole (if that's not what the Russians have asked for, they've certainly not made that clear) is very significant even on its own. For all we know, these demands might just be part of a bargaining game and not seriously insisted upon - but the change from Minsk II does matter.

tim333 5y ago

You maintain peace by attacking those that break it. Letting invading dictators get away with it only encourages them.

pphysch 5y ago
Slippery slope fallacy.
- tim333 5y ago
  By the way re "Ukrainian insurgency" I thought Ukraine was a sovereign country that Russia have claimed they are not even at war with?

unethical_ban 5y ago

How do you think "rewarding a warmonger for his boldness by handing him what he wants" wouldn't encourage more death later?