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Older people knowing better than younger people is one of those heuristics that's almost always right [1]. It's hard to tell the difference between a stupid kid

Older people knowing better than younger people is one of those heuristics that's almost always right [1]. It's hard to tell the difference between a stupid kid and a stupid parent, because stupid parents are rare. Yet people keep searching for stupid parents, because it's really important to find them when they exist. There's a constant rate of kids pulling false alarms on their parents, but you don't want to ignore them, because if one of them is for real, you don't want to be the asshole that ignored all the warning signs. [1]: https://astralcodexten.substack.com/p/heuristics-that-almost-always-work https://astralcodexten.substack.com/p/heuristics-that-almost...

nicoburns 5y ago
Maybe I was just unlucky, but that isn't my retroactive judgement on my childhood at all. My experience was one of mostly adults making me do something that is really down to subjective preference because that was their preference. And now that I'm an adult and can make my own choices I'm much happier about it.
- ghostpepper 5y ago
  If a rational and emotionally mature adult still believes that the decisions their parents made were bad then there’s a much higher chance that they’re correct (compared to when a kid believes such things)
  - mwcremer 5y ago
    Especially in like circumstances; that is, with regard to their own children.
- plandis 5y ago
  I’ve recently become a new father and have listening to a Cat Stevens song that your post reminded me of: “If they were right, I’d agree, But it’s them they know, not me.”
- kikimora 5y ago
  I think is how it is supposed to be - parents making decisions for their kids using their best judgement (preferences). It is ok for kids to disagree when they grow. It is less ok to make a problem out of it. Most parents really try hard to make rational decisions using information and background they have. Criticizing them for making mistakes does not make sense to me. We all humans and we make mistakes.
  - pdonis 5y ago
    > I think is how it is supposed to be - parents making decisions for their kids using their best judgement Yes. > (preferences). No. The parent is supposed to use their best judgment about what is best for the kid given the kid's reasonable long-term preferences [1]--not the parent's preferences. Or, to put it another way, what is best for the actual kid, not what would be best for the parents if they were in the kid's position. The two are often very different. [1] I say "reasonable long-term preferences" to make it clear that I am not saying parents should indulge a kid's preferences for sugary foods instead of nutritious ones, lots of TV instead of a better mix of intellectual activities, and no exercise. I'm talking about cases where the adult the kid will grow up to be will genuinely say they are different from the parents in this respect and wish their preferences as a kid had been respected.
    - kikimora 5y ago
      I think we are on the same page. A parent has a mental model of the world and the kid inside it. Based on this model the parent makes projections and take actions. The problem is this mental model which never the same between the parent and the kid. > Or, to put it another way, what is best for the actual kid, not what would be best for the parents if they were in the kid's position. Most parents act in the best interest of a kid, not themselves. The outcome varies because parents model of the world usually flawed in many ways and they actually make bad decision thinking they have made good ones. E.g. my friend is obsessed with pre-school development. This is likely because she perceive herself as not smart and wants her son to be smart. She force her son to exercise, he can read and do some math at the age of 3. Long term this is bad for the kid. Unfortunately she cannot realize this. Doing so would require a level of knowledge and self-awareness she does not have. I her eyes she makes perfect decisions.
fallingknife 5y ago
> Older people knowing better than younger people is one of those heuristics that's almost always right Up to mid 20's, yes. > stupid parents are rare Not even uncommon.
- jl6 5y ago
  > Up to mid 20's, yes. Are you by any chance over 25 but under 40? :) I think it’s inarguable that experience is valuable, and age correlates very well with experience up to that mid-20s point, but around that point people start to settle into a groove and the extra n years experience is actually just the same year’s experience repeated n times.
- RobertMiller 5y ago
  The mid-20s transition is the most obvious, I think simply because teenagers so often incredibly hot headed. But I believe emotional development continues throughout life as people acquire more experience with age (at least until senility kicks in.)
  - fallingknife 5y ago
    I think so too, but it's much more gradual, and therefore, not uncommon that the age vs age maturity level heuristic fails for a given pair of people.
financetechbro 5y ago
Stupid parents are very much everywhere
- s1artibartfast 5y ago
  But stupidity is relative and stupid children are more common. The heuristic can be reworded as adult parents are more knowledgeable and capable than children. Put the average child in the position of the average parent and you will see the difference.
  - nicoburns 5y ago
    > The heuristic can be reworded as adult parents are more knowledgeable and capable than children. I think that's true in general, but when it comes to making decisions about the child I think that has to be weighted against another heuristic that's often but not always true: that people know what's best for themselves better than other people do. I think people often wrongly neglect that principle when it comes to children assuming that they don't know what they're talking about without taking the time to listen and understand their point.
  - TheOtherHobbes 5y ago
    "Children" aren't a homogenous group. Neither are "parents." And "stupid" is not a single metric. Pre-teens don't have practical adult skills and have poor or non-existent emotional regulation. Teens have some adult skills, are learning or experimenting with others, and have patchy self-regulation. So it makes perfect sense not to allow kids to do things that are dangerous to others, and to limit what teens can do with strong guide rails. But when it comes to world view and insight, teens can certainly be wiser than their parents. They may not know what to do with their insight, but they're not wrong - just inexperienced. Meanwhile many adults are hopelessly naive and may be actively self-harming, especially politically and culturally. And when adults have addiction and/or Cluster B issues, even fairly young kids are more likely to be reliable and responsible.
    - kajaktum 5y ago
laserlight 5y ago
> stupid parents are rare How did you arrive at this conclusion?
- wutbrodo 5y ago
  I had the same reaction, but from context, I think what he meant was "cases where the conflict is due to the stupidity of the parent instead of the stupidity of the kid". The base case is that kids are stupid, because kids are supposed to be stupid.
andrepd 5y ago
You are making very sweeping claims with next to no evidence (ironically, a very un-wise thing to do!). The more I observe the more I understand good parents are exceedingly rare. The vast majority of parents fuck up one way or another. Which shouldn't necessarily be surprising, parenting is very hard!
- notriddle 5y ago
  Of course, if you're an adult of average intelligence, then 50% of parents will be dumber than you. Parents who are dumber than you are would not be rare at all. But I'm not comparing adults with other adults. I'm comparing adults with children. I would be surprised to find a child that was smarter than their parents; it happens, but it's rare.

nicoburns 5y ago

Maybe I was just unlucky, but that isn't my retroactive judgement on my childhood at all. My experience was one of mostly adults making me do something that is really down to subjective preference because that was their preference. And now that I'm an adult and can make my own choices I'm much happier about it.

ghostpepper 5y ago
If a rational and emotionally mature adult still believes that the decisions their parents made were bad then there’s a much higher chance that they’re correct (compared to when a kid believes such things)
- mwcremer 5y ago
  Especially in like circumstances; that is, with regard to their own children.
plandis 5y ago
I’ve recently become a new father and have listening to a Cat Stevens song that your post reminded me of: “If they were right, I’d agree, But it’s them they know, not me.”
kikimora 5y ago
I think is how it is supposed to be - parents making decisions for their kids using their best judgement (preferences). It is ok for kids to disagree when they grow. It is less ok to make a problem out of it. Most parents really try hard to make rational decisions using information and background they have. Criticizing them for making mistakes does not make sense to me. We all humans and we make mistakes.
- pdonis 5y ago
  > I think is how it is supposed to be - parents making decisions for their kids using their best judgement Yes. > (preferences). No. The parent is supposed to use their best judgment about what is best for the kid given the kid's reasonable long-term preferences [1]--not the parent's preferences. Or, to put it another way, what is best for the actual kid, not what would be best for the parents if they were in the kid's position. The two are often very different. [1] I say "reasonable long-term preferences" to make it clear that I am not saying parents should indulge a kid's preferences for sugary foods instead of nutritious ones, lots of TV instead of a better mix of intellectual activities, and no exercise. I'm talking about cases where the adult the kid will grow up to be will genuinely say they are different from the parents in this respect and wish their preferences as a kid had been respected.
  - kikimora 5y ago
    I think we are on the same page. A parent has a mental model of the world and the kid inside it. Based on this model the parent makes projections and take actions. The problem is this mental model which never the same between the parent and the kid. > Or, to put it another way, what is best for the actual kid, not what would be best for the parents if they were in the kid's position. Most parents act in the best interest of a kid, not themselves. The outcome varies because parents model of the world usually flawed in many ways and they actually make bad decision thinking they have made good ones. E.g. my friend is obsessed with pre-school development. This is likely because she perceive herself as not smart and wants her son to be smart. She force her son to exercise, he can read and do some math at the age of 3. Long term this is bad for the kid. Unfortunately she cannot realize this. Doing so would require a level of knowledge and self-awareness she does not have. I her eyes she makes perfect decisions.

fallingknife 5y ago

> Older people knowing better than younger people is one of those heuristics that's almost always right Up to mid 20's, yes. > stupid parents are rare Not even uncommon.

jl6 5y ago
> Up to mid 20's, yes. Are you by any chance over 25 but under 40? :) I think it’s inarguable that experience is valuable, and age correlates very well with experience up to that mid-20s point, but around that point people start to settle into a groove and the extra n years experience is actually just the same year’s experience repeated n times.
RobertMiller 5y ago
The mid-20s transition is the most obvious, I think simply because teenagers so often incredibly hot headed. But I believe emotional development continues throughout life as people acquire more experience with age (at least until senility kicks in.)
- fallingknife 5y ago
  I think so too, but it's much more gradual, and therefore, not uncommon that the age vs age maturity level heuristic fails for a given pair of people.

financetechbro 5y ago

Stupid parents are very much everywhere

s1artibartfast 5y ago
But stupidity is relative and stupid children are more common. The heuristic can be reworded as adult parents are more knowledgeable and capable than children. Put the average child in the position of the average parent and you will see the difference.
- nicoburns 5y ago
  > The heuristic can be reworded as adult parents are more knowledgeable and capable than children. I think that's true in general, but when it comes to making decisions about the child I think that has to be weighted against another heuristic that's often but not always true: that people know what's best for themselves better than other people do. I think people often wrongly neglect that principle when it comes to children assuming that they don't know what they're talking about without taking the time to listen and understand their point.
- TheOtherHobbes 5y ago
  "Children" aren't a homogenous group. Neither are "parents." And "stupid" is not a single metric. Pre-teens don't have practical adult skills and have poor or non-existent emotional regulation. Teens have some adult skills, are learning or experimenting with others, and have patchy self-regulation. So it makes perfect sense not to allow kids to do things that are dangerous to others, and to limit what teens can do with strong guide rails. But when it comes to world view and insight, teens can certainly be wiser than their parents. They may not know what to do with their insight, but they're not wrong - just inexperienced. Meanwhile many adults are hopelessly naive and may be actively self-harming, especially politically and culturally. And when adults have addiction and/or Cluster B issues, even fairly young kids are more likely to be reliable and responsible.
  - kajaktum 5y ago

laserlight 5y ago

> stupid parents are rare How did you arrive at this conclusion?

wutbrodo 5y ago
I had the same reaction, but from context, I think what he meant was "cases where the conflict is due to the stupidity of the parent instead of the stupidity of the kid". The base case is that kids are stupid, because kids are supposed to be stupid.

andrepd 5y ago

You are making very sweeping claims with next to no evidence (ironically, a very un-wise thing to do!). The more I observe the more I understand good parents are exceedingly rare. The vast majority of parents fuck up one way or another. Which shouldn't necessarily be surprising, parenting is very hard!

notriddle 5y ago
Of course, if you're an adult of average intelligence, then 50% of parents will be dumber than you. Parents who are dumber than you are would not be rare at all. But I'm not comparing adults with other adults. I'm comparing adults with children. I would be surprised to find a child that was smarter than their parents; it happens, but it's rare.