4 ms·

These are all pointless questions dragging the conversation back towards healthcare tied to some arbitrary other function. Your caveats and “details” also move

These are all pointless questions dragging the conversation back towards healthcare tied to some arbitrary other function. Your caveats and “details” also move the administrative and management burden into some weird place based on factors that are difficult to manage and track (need, quota, citizenship etc). The answer is simple: everyone in the administrative region gets covered for everything. Anything else is discriminatory. Planning of care services can then respond to the medical and health need of the population at large rather than arbitrary permissions banding.

sokoloff 5y ago
Hence, we’ve established that you and tzs are “both for universal healthcare, but disagree in significant details”.
- drekk 5y ago
  If you are for "universal healthcare" that is not universal, you're for a socialized healthcare system, not a universal one. It's not really that complicated.
e4e78a06 5y ago
> everyone in the administrative region gets covered for everything That leads to rampant abuses. For example in certain East Asian city states with "universal" healthcare people would use ambulances as taxis because they were free. You need copays to prevent this kind of abuse. And you also forget that the US has a big illegal immigration problem. By and large illegal immigrants make minimum wage or lower, generally under the table (i.e. not paying taxes on it). By covering healthcare for them you are automatically subsidizing illegal immigrants at the cost of citizens and permanent residents. Is that fair? If you think these aren't legitimate outcomes of allowing everyone to have free healthcare then you're naive.
- the_other 5y ago
  I think these behaviours would occur. I think it’s pointless and sickeningly discriminatory to legislate too hard against them. The taxi issue seems trivial compared with the cost of actual healthcare. I’ve no objection to some light-touch system for reducing this risk, but it hardly seems worth worrying about. You (your government) could attempt to fix this by sorting out their transport networks and taxi legislation too. This isn’t a flaw in a healthcare system, it’s a symptom of a broken transport system. Those immigrant workers “avoiding tax” are doing the worst jobs in your society, and living in the worst conditions. The very least you can do is pay their healthcare . There may be an “immigration problem”, but it’s that national borders create an arbitrary and discriminatory barrier to free movement people and enforce QoL disparities across the world.
  - e4e78a06 5y ago
    > This isn’t a flaw in a healthcare system, it’s a symptom of a broken transport system. Nobody wants to sit next to piss/weed/cig smelling people and get their shit robbed on public transit (see: BART) if they can afford a car instead. Plus, US light rail runs at much slower speeds than places like China due to NIMBYism, so it also takes longer than driving to get places. > The very least you can do is pay their healthcare . The very least they could do is come into the country legally. And by the way, a lot of the really crappy jobs are done by legal residents, like garbagemen, sewer maintenance, lineman, etc. Guess what? My local taxes pay for those workers to have good salaries and I'm happy to pay. The US also has a visa for farm workers to come to the US as well. > national borders create an arbitrary and discriminatory barrier to free movement people and enforce QoL disparities across the world. Spoken like someone who is privileged and wealthy enough to be unaffected by open borders. Globalization has destroyed the American factory job, along with its high wages, and you still claim open borders are the way forward? Pro tip, don't claim to be morally superior when you work as a software engineer making $$$ that has a huge demand supply imbalance. If you really believe what you're saying then go work in India in a bodyshop making $10k and working 80h weeks, but pay your US cost of living. That's what millions of blue collar workers are facing when you open borders. Please exit your bubble and talk to some real working class people for once. People like you are like the engineers I meet who openly talk about how self driving cars are going to disrupt the industry as they get into an Uber. Zero self-awareness.

sokoloff 5y ago

Hence, we’ve established that you and tzs are “both for universal healthcare, but disagree in significant details”.

drekk 5y ago
If you are for "universal healthcare" that is not universal, you're for a socialized healthcare system, not a universal one. It's not really that complicated.

e4e78a06 5y ago

> everyone in the administrative region gets covered for everything That leads to rampant abuses. For example in certain East Asian city states with "universal" healthcare people would use ambulances as taxis because they were free. You need copays to prevent this kind of abuse. And you also forget that the US has a big illegal immigration problem. By and large illegal immigrants make minimum wage or lower, generally under the table (i.e. not paying taxes on it). By covering healthcare for them you are automatically subsidizing illegal immigrants at the cost of citizens and permanent residents. Is that fair? If you think these aren't legitimate outcomes of allowing everyone to have free healthcare then you're naive.

the_other 5y ago
I think these behaviours would occur. I think it’s pointless and sickeningly discriminatory to legislate too hard against them. The taxi issue seems trivial compared with the cost of actual healthcare. I’ve no objection to some light-touch system for reducing this risk, but it hardly seems worth worrying about. You (your government) could attempt to fix this by sorting out their transport networks and taxi legislation too. This isn’t a flaw in a healthcare system, it’s a symptom of a broken transport system. Those immigrant workers “avoiding tax” are doing the worst jobs in your society, and living in the worst conditions. The very least you can do is pay their healthcare . There may be an “immigration problem”, but it’s that national borders create an arbitrary and discriminatory barrier to free movement people and enforce QoL disparities across the world.
- e4e78a06 5y ago
  > This isn’t a flaw in a healthcare system, it’s a symptom of a broken transport system. Nobody wants to sit next to piss/weed/cig smelling people and get their shit robbed on public transit (see: BART) if they can afford a car instead. Plus, US light rail runs at much slower speeds than places like China due to NIMBYism, so it also takes longer than driving to get places. > The very least you can do is pay their healthcare . The very least they could do is come into the country legally. And by the way, a lot of the really crappy jobs are done by legal residents, like garbagemen, sewer maintenance, lineman, etc. Guess what? My local taxes pay for those workers to have good salaries and I'm happy to pay. The US also has a visa for farm workers to come to the US as well. > national borders create an arbitrary and discriminatory barrier to free movement people and enforce QoL disparities across the world. Spoken like someone who is privileged and wealthy enough to be unaffected by open borders. Globalization has destroyed the American factory job, along with its high wages, and you still claim open borders are the way forward? Pro tip, don't claim to be morally superior when you work as a software engineer making $$$ that has a huge demand supply imbalance. If you really believe what you're saying then go work in India in a bodyshop making $10k and working 80h weeks, but pay your US cost of living. That's what millions of blue collar workers are facing when you open borders. Please exit your bubble and talk to some real working class people for once. People like you are like the engineers I meet who openly talk about how self driving cars are going to disrupt the industry as they get into an Uber. Zero self-awareness.