15 ms·

I think captain marvel is an interesting one on this note. It is a problem in recent films that writers want to overpower women to make things fair, and they do

I think captain marvel is an interesting one on this note. It is a problem in recent films that writers want to overpower women to make things fair, and they do a disservice to the women by doing so. Captain marvel seems to address this directly and in a more mature way. Her character does start weak. She is shown losing repeated to her officer in physical fights and feeling inferior. Later she becomes the most powerful person the MCU has ever seen and the officer turns out to be evil. The climax of captain marvel's character arc in her movie is him trying to bait her into fighting him on fair, unpowered terms and she basically says fuck you and blasts him with a laser. It's not explicitly a gender thing, but making a firm statement that she isn't intrinsically better than the guy without her powers but that she won't be defined by those metrics. It felt like a much better way to handle this message. Being explicit that other people's (traditional male) competencies don't get to define your self worth. It's a flip on the "Let's Fight Like Gentlemen" movie trope and frankly I thought it was a solid message which helped avoid this narrative pitfall even though captain marvel herself is by far the most overpowered female example of late.

sandworm101 5y ago
A character who is put down, becomes angry, then becomes powerful and carries that anger forward. Yawn. That is the background of about half of comic characters. Compare Captain America. He was week and abused, became powerful, but actively decides not to carry baggage. It is a fish-out-of-water character that has to constantly reconcile ideology with army-inspired pragmatism and loyalty. And he has a foil (Iron Man). That's a balanced character that I can like. Captain Marvel is a hyperbolic one-sided character. Those Superman characters are doomed to be boring. Batman-like characters with complex stories are unpredictable and therefore have the potential to be interesting. Gender has nothing to do with Captain Marvel's fundamental problems.
- spywaregorilla 5y ago
  > A character who is put down, becomes angry, then becomes powerful and carries that anger forward. But... that's the opposite of what happens. It is addressing this exact concept and doing something different. He's literally asking to fight like a gentleman. The dialogue in this scene is literally "can you keep your emotions in check long enough to take me on, or will it get the better of you?" And she rejects his cliche premise entirely as a false dichotomy. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0KK1Kv0IzUg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0KK1Kv0IzUg male centric story telling often uses combat ability as a metaphor for personal growth. Usually with literal dialogue or reflections on moral lessons used to emphasize this relationship with the tide of battle turning when the lesson is made clear. I thought it was great to show that, while captain marvel's growth arc is not acquisition of strength but in deriving her self worth from herself rather than from her officer. I agree it will be hard to make more captain marvel movies because there's very little that can challenge her, unless they're willing to make a movie without a significant violent conflict. Not easy. Captain america is a great character concept too. I liked the falcon's series dissection of it. He's explicitly not a supremacist, while acknowledging the ease with which his circumstances could allow that- and do create that within other superheroes.
  - darkerside 5y ago
    > male centric story telling often uses combat ability as a metaphor for personal growth Why does this have to be male centric? Gaining strength as a metaphor and parallel to personal growth is a story as old as time, and there's a reason we all like it. It's like a meet cute in a date movie. You can have fun with the trope, but at the end of the day, something like it needs to happen to make a successful story in this genre.
    - spywaregorilla 5y ago
      > Why does this have to be male centric? I didn't say it had to?
      - darkerside 5y ago
        I'll rephrase. What makes this more central to male storytelling in particular?
        spywaregorilla 5y ago
        Mostly just precedent. Male action heroes tend to be fighters. Even clever Odysseus just straight up murders all of this foes when he returns to Ithaca. Female action heroes are generally few, and many of them that are, are either more tricksters or agile or just kind of oversexualized replicas of the male variety. Many of them tend to be physically weaker than their opponents even at the climax of their films and overcome it through other means whereas male action heroes will more frequently prove themselves to be superior in a pure battle of fisticuffs, sometimes even sacrificing an advantage they have so that they can "fight like a man". Consider, perhaps, Ripley from Alien and Aliens. Always underpowered. Uses a loader suit for her final confrontation. Captain Marvel is undeniably aware of the gender connotations here. It's a pretty explicitly mentioned barrier when they discuss how women couldn't be fighter pilots. She's unusual in that she's just a powerful bruiser kind of female and is way more powerful than her foes. Would it be entertaining to watch a bunch more female (or male) led films that take this same approach? God no. Fights are fun. If you want to subvert that for an interesting message it's got to be somewhat novel each time. Though personally I think fights are more entertaining when they're not clearly aligned with any moral message. John Wick, perhaps, as a counterexample.
- kyriakos 5y ago
  Replace captain marvel with a man or an alien or anything and you still got the same story. Captain marvel being a woman adds no value or difference in this story.
  - spywaregorilla 5y ago
    It certainly adds value to young girls who are otherwise told that they cannot be action heroes- a conversation which is explicitly held in the film with respect to the female fighter pilots
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
Jiro 5y ago
Captain Marvel's reference to being too emotional is a specific feminist shibboleth (https://geekfeminism.fandom.com/wiki/You%27re_being_emotiona https://geekfeminism.fandom.com/wiki/You%27re_being_emotiona...), which is "not explicitly a gender thing" only because that's how shibboleths work. It's absolutely a gender thing, if not explicitly one.
- spywaregorilla 5y ago
  It's both, of course. Being too emotional is clearly a common female stereotype. The call of the antagonist is to "fight him like a man", which is a common male stereotype. She dispels the first, but refuses to accept his premise for the latter. I think it's pretty great. It's a generalizeable message to either gender of course.
xiphias2 5y ago
,, I think captain marvel is an interesting one on this note. It is a problem in recent films that writers want to overpower women to make things fair, and they do a disservice to the women by doing so’’ It’s about making money: social media gives young pretty women more power than any other large group of people ever in human history (especially if they give up their morals), and of course many of them want to believe that that power is not going away, and they don’t have to do anything to keep this power. In the past 30 year old women were very responsible, but nowdays I know people who just optimize their poses on instagram to hide the weight that they gain by partying and getting drunk every night. Of course it’s just some poeple who this kind of life, it just got much easier to do using internet, so the temptation is much stronger.
- spywaregorilla 5y ago
  I fear you may not have realized you have already become a curmudgeonly old man

sandworm101 5y ago

A character who is put down, becomes angry, then becomes powerful and carries that anger forward. Yawn. That is the background of about half of comic characters. Compare Captain America. He was week and abused, became powerful, but actively decides not to carry baggage. It is a fish-out-of-water character that has to constantly reconcile ideology with army-inspired pragmatism and loyalty. And he has a foil (Iron Man). That's a balanced character that I can like. Captain Marvel is a hyperbolic one-sided character. Those Superman characters are doomed to be boring. Batman-like characters with complex stories are unpredictable and therefore have the potential to be interesting. Gender has nothing to do with Captain Marvel's fundamental problems.

spywaregorilla 5y ago
> A character who is put down, becomes angry, then becomes powerful and carries that anger forward. But... that's the opposite of what happens. It is addressing this exact concept and doing something different. He's literally asking to fight like a gentleman. The dialogue in this scene is literally "can you keep your emotions in check long enough to take me on, or will it get the better of you?" And she rejects his cliche premise entirely as a false dichotomy. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0KK1Kv0IzUg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0KK1Kv0IzUg male centric story telling often uses combat ability as a metaphor for personal growth. Usually with literal dialogue or reflections on moral lessons used to emphasize this relationship with the tide of battle turning when the lesson is made clear. I thought it was great to show that, while captain marvel's growth arc is not acquisition of strength but in deriving her self worth from herself rather than from her officer. I agree it will be hard to make more captain marvel movies because there's very little that can challenge her, unless they're willing to make a movie without a significant violent conflict. Not easy. Captain america is a great character concept too. I liked the falcon's series dissection of it. He's explicitly not a supremacist, while acknowledging the ease with which his circumstances could allow that- and do create that within other superheroes.
- darkerside 5y ago
  > male centric story telling often uses combat ability as a metaphor for personal growth Why does this have to be male centric? Gaining strength as a metaphor and parallel to personal growth is a story as old as time, and there's a reason we all like it. It's like a meet cute in a date movie. You can have fun with the trope, but at the end of the day, something like it needs to happen to make a successful story in this genre.
  - spywaregorilla 5y ago
    > Why does this have to be male centric? I didn't say it had to?
    - darkerside 5y ago
      I'll rephrase. What makes this more central to male storytelling in particular?
      - spywaregorilla 5y ago
        Mostly just precedent. Male action heroes tend to be fighters. Even clever Odysseus just straight up murders all of this foes when he returns to Ithaca. Female action heroes are generally few, and many of them that are, are either more tricksters or agile or just kind of oversexualized replicas of the male variety. Many of them tend to be physically weaker than their opponents even at the climax of their films and overcome it through other means whereas male action heroes will more frequently prove themselves to be superior in a pure battle of fisticuffs, sometimes even sacrificing an advantage they have so that they can "fight like a man". Consider, perhaps, Ripley from Alien and Aliens. Always underpowered. Uses a loader suit for her final confrontation. Captain Marvel is undeniably aware of the gender connotations here. It's a pretty explicitly mentioned barrier when they discuss how women couldn't be fighter pilots. She's unusual in that she's just a powerful bruiser kind of female and is way more powerful than her foes. Would it be entertaining to watch a bunch more female (or male) led films that take this same approach? God no. Fights are fun. If you want to subvert that for an interesting message it's got to be somewhat novel each time. Though personally I think fights are more entertaining when they're not clearly aligned with any moral message. John Wick, perhaps, as a counterexample.
kyriakos 5y ago
Replace captain marvel with a man or an alien or anything and you still got the same story. Captain marvel being a woman adds no value or difference in this story.
- spywaregorilla 5y ago
  It certainly adds value to young girls who are otherwise told that they cannot be action heroes- a conversation which is explicitly held in the film with respect to the female fighter pilots

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

Jiro 5y ago

Captain Marvel's reference to being too emotional is a specific feminist shibboleth (https://geekfeminism.fandom.com/wiki/You%27re_being_emotiona https://geekfeminism.fandom.com/wiki/You%27re_being_emotiona...), which is "not explicitly a gender thing" only because that's how shibboleths work. It's absolutely a gender thing, if not explicitly one.

spywaregorilla 5y ago
It's both, of course. Being too emotional is clearly a common female stereotype. The call of the antagonist is to "fight him like a man", which is a common male stereotype. She dispels the first, but refuses to accept his premise for the latter. I think it's pretty great. It's a generalizeable message to either gender of course.

xiphias2 5y ago

,, I think captain marvel is an interesting one on this note. It is a problem in recent films that writers want to overpower women to make things fair, and they do a disservice to the women by doing so’’ It’s about making money: social media gives young pretty women more power than any other large group of people ever in human history (especially if they give up their morals), and of course many of them want to believe that that power is not going away, and they don’t have to do anything to keep this power. In the past 30 year old women were very responsible, but nowdays I know people who just optimize their poses on instagram to hide the weight that they gain by partying and getting drunk every night. Of course it’s just some poeple who this kind of life, it just got much easier to do using internet, so the temptation is much stronger.

spywaregorilla 5y ago
I fear you may not have realized you have already become a curmudgeonly old man