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I don't think gender has anything to do with it though. > it's so important to show that with utter, relentless completeness, that they've created characters t

I don't think gender has anything to do with it though. > it's so important to show that with utter, relentless completeness, that they've created characters that are magical, who don't need to overcome anything, characters who matter mostly as individuals, who have no duties or responsibilities to anyone else (most certainly not to any men). They're just total kick-ass take-no-prisoners empowered women. But what you've just described is Christopher Nolan's Batman (who loses to Bane physically early in the movie, and beats him by... physically overpowering Bane a bit later). The modern "superhero" genre is completely devoid of modern responsibilities. This wasn't true before... in the 70s, you had Clark who had to be a responsible person (show up to his job, write articles, etc. etc.). Despite being a magical alien from a futuristic society, Clark Kent had a number of "human" scenes, interacting with his boss, showing off responsible uses of his powers (ex: the Robbery scene, he manages to protect Lois Lane and the Robber, by pretending to be weak. Catching the bullet and pretending to go unconscious from fright). Today, Christopher Nolan's Batman (who is considered well written), leaves his company to go off on a Ninja-adventure. Leaves all the decision-making to a rival group of executives, and then magically takes back over the company despite his multi-year absence after siphoning funds to a secretive and poorly managed research-and-development corner of the company. And somehow the people who ran the company during his absence are the antagonists who need to be disposed of by the end of the 1st movie. ---------------- Don't get me wrong, Nolan's Batman is really interesting and fun to watch. But he's fun to watch BECAUSE he's an amoral asshole with crap moral lessons. Iron-man is another movie character who has this effect as well. Assholes who magically get their way are often interesting to watch. I wouldn't want any children following in the "lessons" of Nolan's Batman or 2008+ era Iron Man. They're awful moral characters. Ray (Star Wars, episodes 7-9) is positively a saint in comparison.

dionidium 5y ago
I upvoted both you and Buldak because I'm certain there's something to what you're saying. Few things are monocausal or completely explained by one factor. And surely these modern filmmaking tropes feedback on themselves and reinforce prevailing styles. Mine isn't any kind of grand unifying theory. I just think it's a factor.
- dragontamer 5y ago
  There's a little bit of gender role in there: Male assholes (ex: Rick from Rick and Morty, Nolan's Batman, Downy's Iron Man) are fun and interesting to watch. Female assholes are much, much harder to write (Amanda Waller, Suicide Squad, seems to be the best written one in recent films?) I guess there's explicitly "female" movies, like "Devil Wears Prada" where that kind of behavior is more acceptable (Miranda Priestly plays the role of asshole boss). But maybe the "formula" for what audiences accept just hasn't really been figured out yet for female characters. You certainly can't just take male-oriented tropes and try to apply them to female-oriented characters.
  - dionidium 5y ago
    Yeah, I think this is a pretty interesting response. That double standard feels to me like a plausible explanation for why some female characters are written differently.
  - wolverine876 5y ago
    > You certainly can't just take male-oriented tropes and try to apply them to female-oriented characters. Why do you say that? People don't, but they can. I've seen plenty of plays written for male leads but acted by females (e.g., Hamlet).
  - stevenicr 5y ago
    This comment made me replay 2021 cruella in my head a bit.. the successful female asshole is successful since she does not play fair.. the younger female gets to be an asshole cuz she is poor / parents taken away (?) She then becomes a different asshole caring for only herself and single success, which her long time friends dislike.. then she gets to be a more sinister asshole because she has proof her victims have been more sinister (?) the female lead was the same as devil wears prada right? so the typecast / emotional prejudice was already embedded.. I can see how this stuff is hard to write, once of the suicide squads tried so hard it should of just made up new characters imho. but then this particular formula seems so easy to write - main characters get to do really bad things to people cuz those people did really bad things. I guess this is the main appeal of spiderman type projects - they limit the bad things done to bad people (?) I put question marks because my study and recollection of these things is of a real interest, but not well versed research / knowledge. I'm sure there is much more. Frankly I've been disappointed in what movies/media/tv shows / social sharing - all this stuff has been teaching for lessons for a long time, I can't think of much that is done well for non-awful lessons I guess.
spywaregorilla 5y ago
I tend to think the iron man movie are all trash. However I don't think they follow this pattern as you say. By the third movie he's literally having anxiety panic attacks. He's fearful that spidey, whom he brought to the big leagues, will get hurt and it'll be on his conscious. He's afraid and guilty of the collateral damage he's spawned into the world but intializing super hero culture. Execution of those movies aside I thought his character development arc was pretty good.

dionidium 5y ago

I upvoted both you and Buldak because I'm certain there's something to what you're saying. Few things are monocausal or completely explained by one factor. And surely these modern filmmaking tropes feedback on themselves and reinforce prevailing styles. Mine isn't any kind of grand unifying theory. I just think it's a factor.

dragontamer 5y ago
There's a little bit of gender role in there: Male assholes (ex: Rick from Rick and Morty, Nolan's Batman, Downy's Iron Man) are fun and interesting to watch. Female assholes are much, much harder to write (Amanda Waller, Suicide Squad, seems to be the best written one in recent films?) I guess there's explicitly "female" movies, like "Devil Wears Prada" where that kind of behavior is more acceptable (Miranda Priestly plays the role of asshole boss). But maybe the "formula" for what audiences accept just hasn't really been figured out yet for female characters. You certainly can't just take male-oriented tropes and try to apply them to female-oriented characters.
- dionidium 5y ago
  Yeah, I think this is a pretty interesting response. That double standard feels to me like a plausible explanation for why some female characters are written differently.
- wolverine876 5y ago
  > You certainly can't just take male-oriented tropes and try to apply them to female-oriented characters. Why do you say that? People don't, but they can. I've seen plenty of plays written for male leads but acted by females (e.g., Hamlet).
- stevenicr 5y ago
  This comment made me replay 2021 cruella in my head a bit.. the successful female asshole is successful since she does not play fair.. the younger female gets to be an asshole cuz she is poor / parents taken away (?) She then becomes a different asshole caring for only herself and single success, which her long time friends dislike.. then she gets to be a more sinister asshole because she has proof her victims have been more sinister (?) the female lead was the same as devil wears prada right? so the typecast / emotional prejudice was already embedded.. I can see how this stuff is hard to write, once of the suicide squads tried so hard it should of just made up new characters imho. but then this particular formula seems so easy to write - main characters get to do really bad things to people cuz those people did really bad things. I guess this is the main appeal of spiderman type projects - they limit the bad things done to bad people (?) I put question marks because my study and recollection of these things is of a real interest, but not well versed research / knowledge. I'm sure there is much more. Frankly I've been disappointed in what movies/media/tv shows / social sharing - all this stuff has been teaching for lessons for a long time, I can't think of much that is done well for non-awful lessons I guess.

spywaregorilla 5y ago

I tend to think the iron man movie are all trash. However I don't think they follow this pattern as you say. By the third movie he's literally having anxiety panic attacks. He's fearful that spidey, whom he brought to the big leagues, will get hurt and it'll be on his conscious. He's afraid and guilty of the collateral damage he's spawned into the world but intializing super hero culture. Execution of those movies aside I thought his character development arc was pretty good.