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Getting better and better at solving problems (here: in a broad range of mathematics) at an unconventional rate makes it uncanny. It seems like magic. As every

by dav_Oz 5y ago

Getting better and better at solving problems (here: in a broad range of mathematics) at an unconventional rate makes it uncanny. It seems like magic. As everyone doing magic tricks knows there is a lot of effort going into a good one. The "innate abilities" or "genius" is the "magic" we all like to experience. In the case of "von Neumann" he isn't isolated. He is often lumped together with other Hungarian Jews fleeing Nazism and refered to as A marslakók ("The Martians"): Erdős, Kármán, Pólya, Szilárd, Teller, Wigner ... Hungarians are a curious bunch, aren't they? Arguably the strongest female chess player of all time (in the same class as the strongest men) is also Hungarian: Judit Polgár. How do they do it? There is no magic, no genius, her Hungarian father wanted to prove exactly this to the (western) world (in the east the notion isn't prevalent). And he simply conducted the experiment[0] consequently his youngest daughter became a so-called chess genius. Or as a Korean or Chinese might say she is doing the hard work. We all like to tell ourselves stories and it is fine, it is a great and very effective way to convey certain things but sometimes we lose sight of what is really going on because of our infatuation with the narrative devices. Instead of learning and trying to explain things, we sometimes just want to indulge in the "magic moments". But as Feynman put it nicely: you can do both one doesn't exclude the other. [0]https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/L%C3%A1szl%C3%B3_Polg%C3%A1r https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/L%C3%A1szl%C3%B3_Polg%C3%A1r

mjreacher 5y ago
Wigner himself said the only genius amongst The Martians was von Neumann so he at least thought von Neumann was special compared to the others. For your example a mathematician who would fit better would be Norbert Wiener, who was taught from a young age by his father to be a prodigy.
- dr_dshiv 5y ago
  Norbert Wiener! Love that guy. Cant wait for cybernetics to make a comeback. Gonna go look for cyber*.com names now…
kaba0 5y ago
I don’t think it is far fetched to claim that such a complex system as the human brain has a genetic basis regarding intelligence as well, especially towards outliers of the IQ bell curve. For example, Ashkenazi Jews have very specific neurological diseases, but those same genes could also give much increased intelligence when they are paired with their normal counterparts. Here is a very interesting blog post on an investigation behind “The Martians” for example: https://slatestarcodex.com/2017/05/26/the-atomic-bomb-considered-as-hungarian-high-school-science-fair-project/ https://slatestarcodex.com/2017/05/26/the-atomic-bomb-consid... which basically finds this same reason for their “superhuman” intelligence.
- pfdietz 5y ago
  Of course intelligence has a genetic component. If it didn't, intelligence could not have evolved. There is a theory the BRCA1/2 mutations (which cause breast and other cancers) may also positively affect intelligence. https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/journal-of-biosocial-science/article/abs/natural-history-of-ashkenazi-intelligence/170E96F5581A9F39524DAC717886D945 https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/journal-of-biosocial...
- dav_Oz 5y ago
  My rhetoric got a bit over my head, but I really think that every (healthy) newborn human has the potential to become what is called a "genius". This is the norm. The limiting factor isn't some predetermined thing like genetics. It may come into play when we look into a very narrow set of like-minded and like-socialized where one could argue that "von Neuman" was the most "gifted" of the Martians bunch. But even there one could also argue that he just spent more time on problems. Does this maybe count as intelligence, too? The perseverance? From the Polgár-Sisters the youngest - Judit - wasn't necessarily the smartest but no one in her family would argue that she wasn' the most strong-willed by a big margin. I definitely think the genetic factor is way overblown (like by one order of magnitude) in Western societies. From personal experience from East-Asian or Middle-East (like Iran) countries, they have a more pragmatic outlook (not denying some genetic factor but they really don't care so much, in our parts it is seems like some fetish in comparison).
yesenadam 5y ago
> Arguably the strongest female chess player of all time More than arguably. Judit is beyond any doubt the strongest female of all time, by a long way. Her sisters also weren't bad, Susan becoming women's world champion. Judit was so good she never bothered playing for the women's title. Hou Yifan, the second strongest female of all time, women's world champion at age 16, is ranked about #90 in the world. Judit was #8.

by dav_Oz 5y ago

mjreacher 5y ago

Wigner himself said the only genius amongst The Martians was von Neumann so he at least thought von Neumann was special compared to the others. For your example a mathematician who would fit better would be Norbert Wiener, who was taught from a young age by his father to be a prodigy.

dr_dshiv 5y ago
Norbert Wiener! Love that guy. Cant wait for cybernetics to make a comeback. Gonna go look for cyber*.com names now…

kaba0 5y ago

I don’t think it is far fetched to claim that such a complex system as the human brain has a genetic basis regarding intelligence as well, especially towards outliers of the IQ bell curve. For example, Ashkenazi Jews have very specific neurological diseases, but those same genes could also give much increased intelligence when they are paired with their normal counterparts. Here is a very interesting blog post on an investigation behind “The Martians” for example: https://slatestarcodex.com/2017/05/26/the-atomic-bomb-considered-as-hungarian-high-school-science-fair-project/ https://slatestarcodex.com/2017/05/26/the-atomic-bomb-consid... which basically finds this same reason for their “superhuman” intelligence.

pfdietz 5y ago
Of course intelligence has a genetic component. If it didn't, intelligence could not have evolved. There is a theory the BRCA1/2 mutations (which cause breast and other cancers) may also positively affect intelligence. https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/journal-of-biosocial-science/article/abs/natural-history-of-ashkenazi-intelligence/170E96F5581A9F39524DAC717886D945 https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/journal-of-biosocial...
dav_Oz 5y ago
My rhetoric got a bit over my head, but I really think that every (healthy) newborn human has the potential to become what is called a "genius". This is the norm. The limiting factor isn't some predetermined thing like genetics. It may come into play when we look into a very narrow set of like-minded and like-socialized where one could argue that "von Neuman" was the most "gifted" of the Martians bunch. But even there one could also argue that he just spent more time on problems. Does this maybe count as intelligence, too? The perseverance? From the Polgár-Sisters the youngest - Judit - wasn't necessarily the smartest but no one in her family would argue that she wasn' the most strong-willed by a big margin. I definitely think the genetic factor is way overblown (like by one order of magnitude) in Western societies. From personal experience from East-Asian or Middle-East (like Iran) countries, they have a more pragmatic outlook (not denying some genetic factor but they really don't care so much, in our parts it is seems like some fetish in comparison).

yesenadam 5y ago

> Arguably the strongest female chess player of all time More than arguably. Judit is beyond any doubt the strongest female of all time, by a long way. Her sisters also weren't bad, Susan becoming women's world champion. Judit was so good she never bothered playing for the women's title. Hou Yifan, the second strongest female of all time, women's world champion at age 16, is ranked about #90 in the world. Judit was #8.