4 ms·

The main criticism of this YouTube video is that the main character doesn't really have to put in any effort and has all those skills from the very beginning.

The main criticism of this YouTube video is that the main character doesn't really have to put in any effort and has all those skills from the very beginning. While I agree that this trope can make kids think they're special without trying in life (and that they will be a hero in the future), I think there have been similar tropes in the past. Just take basic story writing of many old movies: There is always a hero that is living a boring or even sad life, often unsuccessful and unhappy. Suddenly, a "mentor" appears who takes our hero into this new magical world and teaches him the most amazing things in no time. Matrix, Star Wars, Harry Potter, basically all Disney movies, even Sailor Moon. That doesn't teach kids very positive things either: just wait for a mentor to come along and show you the way to become a hero, don't worry, you will be a hero because someone shows you the way. So I don't see the development described in the YouTube video as dramatically, it has existed forever.

bawolff 5y ago
I think the difference is that the mentor might introduce them to the magical world, but its still up to the character what they want to do with it e.g. to quote the matrix "But I can only show you the door. You're the one that has to walk through it." And the decision as to what to do with it has consequences and changes them. Or to use another example - gandalf might mentor frodo, but yet it always seems like frodo's accomplishments are his own and gandalf didn't really do all that much for him when all is said and done. Frodo is a hero and an interesting character, but i wouldn't want to be him. Anyways i don't think the problem is lack of life lessons (even if they are lacking) its static characters and lack of stakes. Characters that were born ready are boring to watch. We like watching characters that change and adapt to circumstances whose choices are meaningful and consequential. The protagonist who was basically born with super powers, does not face a challenge and doesn't have to adapt their personality, is a boring character.
- watwut 5y ago
  Nah. Superman, spiderman, hluk, any of these got skills by accident. Even karate kid which shown some training, shown imaginary low effort low time investment training. The typical action movie of my youth had guys winning all the fights for no reason other then that they are awesome. Audiences loved it. The past movies had enough of pure power fantasy or other "just gonna win" in it for the whole generation to drawn in it. And not just American movies. Bud Spencer and Terrence Hill were super famous and did basically nothing but that. They don't train, never ever, they are lazy as cool factor and are strongest guys most sharpest shooters around. Franch movies, fairly often the same thing. Random middle aged man thrown in situation and suddenly climbing and jumping roofs. And series targetted at kids still show plenty of training. Lego ninja go, winx club, all show training or classroom scenes often.
  - bawolff 5y ago
    > Nah. Superman, spiderman, hluk, any of these got skills by accident And half the plot is typically devoted to if they want to accept their new found powers or ignore them to live a normal life. So its still quite devoted to a choice with life changing consequences.
    - watwut 5y ago
      > And half the plot is typically devoted to if they want to accept their new found powers or ignore them to live a normal life. So its still quite devoted to a choice with life changing consequences. There is no way for Hulk to ignore or reject the powers. Nor for superman or spiderman for that matter. Superman in particular is just born that way, full stop. And speaking about action movies that nope, no big deep choices there. Even in matrix, the choice is singular scene where main character picks the pill so that movie can happen. And I liked Bud Spencer and Terrence Hill movies, so I have seen them multiple times and consequences for choices and actions are not the theme there at all. I have also read Spiderman comic targeted at kids back then. Half the time he just reacts to what is going on around, not having much choice nor choice being theme beyond "Am I going to do the right thing or not" false choice. Ninja Turtles had training in them ... but also they are essentially magical turtles due to some experiments or what done on them. Average movie and entertainment in 90ties just was not that deep.
  - noduerme 5y ago
    It's true it's not new. But when AI is mainly responsible for rewriting old scripts over and over, every 10 years, and telling children they're new movies, it may be missing out on the human elements that made those stories good the first time.
  - Beldin 5y ago
    > Even karate kid which shown some training, shown imaginary low effort low time investment training. The point of his training is that the moves have completely become muscle memory/second nature. I have no clue how long that would take, but it would be significantly more than "low time investment". Note also that (1) he claimed to have had karate training before; (2) after hebuilds up the needed muscle memory, training continues to teach him when to use what muscle memory.
- akemichan 5y ago
  > I think the difference is that the mentor might introduce them to the magical world, but its still up to the character what they want to do with it e.g. to quote the matrix "But I can only show you the door. You're the one that has to walk through it." And the decision as to what to do with it has consequences and changes them. And in most cases they accept blindly, otherwise there's no story. Madoka Magica is one of the few stories that I know where this trope is broken by the characters questioning the decision.
carrolldunham 5y ago
- bawolff 5y ago
  They didn't use rey skywalker as their only example or even their primary example. I would also say that people dismissing other people's arguments without even listening to them is a major problem with internet.
TheOtherHobbes 5y ago
This has been a standard trope for well over a century. It's not really about "being shown the way" because heroes still have to do some active hero-ing to get to the end. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hero%27s_journey https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hero%27s_journey Movies and fiction are about moral lessons packaged into fantasies and escapism. If movies were relentlessly realistic no one would go to see them, because there would be nothing to see. Even "gritty realism" isn't realistic. It's usually just the same trope populated with shady underworld characters and a flawed or outcast anti-hero instead of inspirational mentors.
noduerme 5y ago
No, think about Star Wars. Luke doesn't believe in the Force, doesn't believe Obi Wan is anything but a crazy old man. He has to come to his realization himself and then find the Force in himself. He isn't gifted with it. That truly is a big difference between the classic hero's journey and the newer 2010s films where people just have a magic power. And people are sort of sick of it. It's why Watchmen or Guardians of the Galaxy stand out against so many boring superhero movies. Because a hero needs to be unwilling, unable, and unbelieving... and possibly not even a very good candidate for heroism. Hollywood shortened the journey with the classic stupid "karate montage to music" thing in the 80s. But now it's just like, oh jeez wow I have a superpower! Cool! So ultimately, who cares? Who can relate to that? Look at Greek mythology. No one could understand why Zeus got all pissed off, but he was Zeus. He was kind of inscrutable. Man related to demigods who carried our emotions and message as envoys. Or, take Star Trek. Spock is half-human. He serves as a bridge between the alien logic and the emotional, rational part of our nature. We know we should eventually evolve to be like Vulcans, but we value our dirty humanity. So Spock, by occasionally regressing to his human side, is our proof that our humanity itself has value. There's no humanity in a superhero who's just born with superpowers. That's Zeus. A great hero is like Spock, or Luke Skywalker, someone fighting their inner nature. Otherwise all conflicts are just eye candy, external, and ultimately CGI bullshit.
- boomboomsubban 5y ago
  Luke Skywalker was just born with superpowers. Sure he had to learn to use the force properly, but there was still no other person in that story capable of using the force. Luke could have replaced either Wedge or Biggs, but they were not capable of replacing him.
- watwut 5y ago
  Luke Skywalker is shown as natural born talent. Which is why he can become Jedi despite being too old for it and emotional. His hero journey starts with right genetical inheritance. > Look at Greek mythology. No one could understand why Zeus got all pissed off, but he was Zeus. He was kind of inscrutable. I think he is just powerful rather then impossible to understand. Not that I am expert, but Greek gods don't come across to me as something alien. They are fairly human, emotional at times rational at others, political among themselves, but definitely too strong for actual humans to handle.
em500 5y ago
According to The Seven Basic Plots[1], all stories follow one of the archetypes - Overcoming the Monster - Rags to Riches - The Quest - Voyage and Return - Comedy - Tragedy - Rebirth [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Seven_Basic_Plots https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Seven_Basic_Plots

bawolff 5y ago

I think the difference is that the mentor might introduce them to the magical world, but its still up to the character what they want to do with it e.g. to quote the matrix "But I can only show you the door. You're the one that has to walk through it." And the decision as to what to do with it has consequences and changes them. Or to use another example - gandalf might mentor frodo, but yet it always seems like frodo's accomplishments are his own and gandalf didn't really do all that much for him when all is said and done. Frodo is a hero and an interesting character, but i wouldn't want to be him. Anyways i don't think the problem is lack of life lessons (even if they are lacking) its static characters and lack of stakes. Characters that were born ready are boring to watch. We like watching characters that change and adapt to circumstances whose choices are meaningful and consequential. The protagonist who was basically born with super powers, does not face a challenge and doesn't have to adapt their personality, is a boring character.

watwut 5y ago
Nah. Superman, spiderman, hluk, any of these got skills by accident. Even karate kid which shown some training, shown imaginary low effort low time investment training. The typical action movie of my youth had guys winning all the fights for no reason other then that they are awesome. Audiences loved it. The past movies had enough of pure power fantasy or other "just gonna win" in it for the whole generation to drawn in it. And not just American movies. Bud Spencer and Terrence Hill were super famous and did basically nothing but that. They don't train, never ever, they are lazy as cool factor and are strongest guys most sharpest shooters around. Franch movies, fairly often the same thing. Random middle aged man thrown in situation and suddenly climbing and jumping roofs. And series targetted at kids still show plenty of training. Lego ninja go, winx club, all show training or classroom scenes often.
- bawolff 5y ago
  > Nah. Superman, spiderman, hluk, any of these got skills by accident And half the plot is typically devoted to if they want to accept their new found powers or ignore them to live a normal life. So its still quite devoted to a choice with life changing consequences.
  - watwut 5y ago
    > And half the plot is typically devoted to if they want to accept their new found powers or ignore them to live a normal life. So its still quite devoted to a choice with life changing consequences. There is no way for Hulk to ignore or reject the powers. Nor for superman or spiderman for that matter. Superman in particular is just born that way, full stop. And speaking about action movies that nope, no big deep choices there. Even in matrix, the choice is singular scene where main character picks the pill so that movie can happen. And I liked Bud Spencer and Terrence Hill movies, so I have seen them multiple times and consequences for choices and actions are not the theme there at all. I have also read Spiderman comic targeted at kids back then. Half the time he just reacts to what is going on around, not having much choice nor choice being theme beyond "Am I going to do the right thing or not" false choice. Ninja Turtles had training in them ... but also they are essentially magical turtles due to some experiments or what done on them. Average movie and entertainment in 90ties just was not that deep.
- noduerme 5y ago
  It's true it's not new. But when AI is mainly responsible for rewriting old scripts over and over, every 10 years, and telling children they're new movies, it may be missing out on the human elements that made those stories good the first time.
- Beldin 5y ago
  > Even karate kid which shown some training, shown imaginary low effort low time investment training. The point of his training is that the moves have completely become muscle memory/second nature. I have no clue how long that would take, but it would be significantly more than "low time investment". Note also that (1) he claimed to have had karate training before; (2) after hebuilds up the needed muscle memory, training continues to teach him when to use what muscle memory.
akemichan 5y ago
> I think the difference is that the mentor might introduce them to the magical world, but its still up to the character what they want to do with it e.g. to quote the matrix "But I can only show you the door. You're the one that has to walk through it." And the decision as to what to do with it has consequences and changes them. And in most cases they accept blindly, otherwise there's no story. Madoka Magica is one of the few stories that I know where this trope is broken by the characters questioning the decision.

carrolldunham 5y ago

bawolff 5y ago
They didn't use rey skywalker as their only example or even their primary example. I would also say that people dismissing other people's arguments without even listening to them is a major problem with internet.

TheOtherHobbes 5y ago

This has been a standard trope for well over a century. It's not really about "being shown the way" because heroes still have to do some active hero-ing to get to the end. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hero%27s_journey https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hero%27s_journey Movies and fiction are about moral lessons packaged into fantasies and escapism. If movies were relentlessly realistic no one would go to see them, because there would be nothing to see. Even "gritty realism" isn't realistic. It's usually just the same trope populated with shady underworld characters and a flawed or outcast anti-hero instead of inspirational mentors.

noduerme 5y ago

No, think about Star Wars. Luke doesn't believe in the Force, doesn't believe Obi Wan is anything but a crazy old man. He has to come to his realization himself and then find the Force in himself. He isn't gifted with it. That truly is a big difference between the classic hero's journey and the newer 2010s films where people just have a magic power. And people are sort of sick of it. It's why Watchmen or Guardians of the Galaxy stand out against so many boring superhero movies. Because a hero needs to be unwilling, unable, and unbelieving... and possibly not even a very good candidate for heroism. Hollywood shortened the journey with the classic stupid "karate montage to music" thing in the 80s. But now it's just like, oh jeez wow I have a superpower! Cool! So ultimately, who cares? Who can relate to that? Look at Greek mythology. No one could understand why Zeus got all pissed off, but he was Zeus. He was kind of inscrutable. Man related to demigods who carried our emotions and message as envoys. Or, take Star Trek. Spock is half-human. He serves as a bridge between the alien logic and the emotional, rational part of our nature. We know we should eventually evolve to be like Vulcans, but we value our dirty humanity. So Spock, by occasionally regressing to his human side, is our proof that our humanity itself has value. There's no humanity in a superhero who's just born with superpowers. That's Zeus. A great hero is like Spock, or Luke Skywalker, someone fighting their inner nature. Otherwise all conflicts are just eye candy, external, and ultimately CGI bullshit.

boomboomsubban 5y ago
Luke Skywalker was just born with superpowers. Sure he had to learn to use the force properly, but there was still no other person in that story capable of using the force. Luke could have replaced either Wedge or Biggs, but they were not capable of replacing him.
watwut 5y ago
Luke Skywalker is shown as natural born talent. Which is why he can become Jedi despite being too old for it and emotional. His hero journey starts with right genetical inheritance. > Look at Greek mythology. No one could understand why Zeus got all pissed off, but he was Zeus. He was kind of inscrutable. I think he is just powerful rather then impossible to understand. Not that I am expert, but Greek gods don't come across to me as something alien. They are fairly human, emotional at times rational at others, political among themselves, but definitely too strong for actual humans to handle.

em500 5y ago

According to The Seven Basic Plots[1], all stories follow one of the archetypes - Overcoming the Monster - Rags to Riches - The Quest - Voyage and Return - Comedy - Tragedy - Rebirth [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Seven_Basic_Plots https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Seven_Basic_Plots