4 ms·

After the first couple of paragraphs I began to skim, so I may have missed the point the article was trying to make, but it certainly was not stated within the

After the first couple of paragraphs I began to skim, so I may have missed the point the article was trying to make, but it certainly was not stated within the first few paragraphs. "Designated driving gigs" enable alcohol abuse among men? Alcohol abuse by men is a huge social problem? Drunk driving by men is bad but so is drinking to excess by men? I think it would have been a stronger article were it just a series of anecdotes about driving drunk people around, without the moral and social commentary, but then, it would not have been published in Slate.

JoeAltmaier 5y ago
It wasn't an essay I don't think. It was a story. Most stories don't start with an abstract.
DonHopkins 5y ago
It would probably have seemed like a stronger article to you if you'd actually taken the time to do more than just skim it, although oddly that didn't stop you from taking time to publicly announce that you didn't take the time to fully read the article and admit you may have missed the point, but then proffer your opinion anyway. After myself having taken the time to fully read the entire article, as well as all the paragraphs that you just wrote, plus most of what other people have written in this discussion, and then I've also taken the brief time to do some simple google queries, I'd like to kindly suggest that maybe some hard cold facts and statistics about reality would be stronger than a series of abstract anecdotes about driving drunk un-gendered people around. But don't worry, I don't expect you to take the time to read my suggestion or the facts, or anything else other people have posted to this discussion, after you already announced you didn't bother to read the whole article and may have missed the point, so you're under no obligation to subject yourself to any more arduous reading or point getting. http://www.drunkdrivingstats.org/menversuswomendrunkdrivingstatistics.html http://www.drunkdrivingstats.org/menversuswomendrunkdrivings... >Who Is At A Higher Risk Of Driving Drunk? >In 2010, men were responsible for four out of every five DUIs. And although only 11% of the adult population is made up of males between the ages of 21 and 34, this high-risk group was responsible for 32% of all drunk driving episodes. Last, but certainly not least, binge drinkers also fall into this high-risk group of those most likely to drink and drive. In fact, a male who drank at least five alcoholic beverages in a short amount of time (or a female who drank at least four) caused 85% of all reported drunk driving incidents. And as far as moral and social commentary goes, it's usually men who sexually harass drivers, and say things like "You hold her down, and I’ll keep her mouth busy" and then criticize other men for not laughing along. It's too bad that it hurts fragile male egos to read (or skim over, in your case) moral and social commentary instead of just dishing it out, but all the evidence supports it, so "man up". If you object to teaching science, history, facts, and statistics if they contradict your sexist, racist, and religious beliefs, or hurt your feelings by making you feel guilty about sexism and racism, then you could always move to Florida, which is now a "safe space" for bigots. Florida Senate passes GOP-backed ban on teaching students to 'feel guilt' for history: https://edition.cnn.com/2022/03/10/politics/florida-senate-crt-schools-businesses/index.html https://edition.cnn.com/2022/03/10/politics/florida-senate-c...
- rendall 5y ago
  > it's usually men who sexually harass drivers... It's too bad that it hurts fragile male egos to read (or skim over, in your case) moral and social commentary instead of just dishing it out, but all the evidence supports it, so "man up". You may share with the article writer a set of assumptions that makes it easier for you to understand what her point is. No need for hostility. I wrote what I wrote hoping that someone would explain it to me. You correctly deduced that I am a man. As a man who does not sexually harass women and shuts bad behavior down immediately when I see it, I'm baffled by rest of what you say here. My fragile ego? Because I missed the point of the article? I bear responsibility as a civilized human being for my fellow humans, even strangers. But it seems like you're saying that I bear culpability as a man for the behavior of the minority of men who behave violently or reprehensibly, specifically because I'm a man? Am I reading you correctly? If that's your belief, I can understand your hostility. It would seem to you as if I'm denying my personal culpability. If that's a belief shared by the writer, it makes sense now why you understood the article and I did not. To my mind, this kind of thinking is a category error to be avoided. It derives from assuming that, because most of the people who behave badly belong to some group, that therefore most members of that group behave badly. A corollary then is the idea all individuals of that group bear culpability for the actions of their most extreme individuals. As a human being, I bear responsibility to end bad behavior. If I were in a group of drunken men, and someone said something so reprehensible, I would shut it down. If it was a man I knew, I would apologize profusely to the driver, leaving a big tip; I would have a series of seriously uncomfortable conversation with this man in the days and weeks to follow. But that's because I am a civilized human being, not because I bear culpability as a man for his behavior. That's the way I see it, anyway. I have 2 related questions for you. Bear with me, and answer honestly: Are you a man? Do you believe that all men, deep down, are inherently violent rapists?
  - DonHopkins 5y ago
    - rendall 5y ago
      > diminishes the author's arguments, and insults the author by calling him a woman Your tirade gets a pass after that statement. It is an embarrassing reveal. You apparently think it's an insult to be a woman. If you're a man, look inward. Your hatred and distrust of men is self hate. You can break free. Know that I'll read whatever you write next, but will not respond. Be well.

JoeAltmaier 5y ago

It wasn't an essay I don't think. It was a story. Most stories don't start with an abstract.

DonHopkins 5y ago

It would probably have seemed like a stronger article to you if you'd actually taken the time to do more than just skim it, although oddly that didn't stop you from taking time to publicly announce that you didn't take the time to fully read the article and admit you may have missed the point, but then proffer your opinion anyway. After myself having taken the time to fully read the entire article, as well as all the paragraphs that you just wrote, plus most of what other people have written in this discussion, and then I've also taken the brief time to do some simple google queries, I'd like to kindly suggest that maybe some hard cold facts and statistics about reality would be stronger than a series of abstract anecdotes about driving drunk un-gendered people around. But don't worry, I don't expect you to take the time to read my suggestion or the facts, or anything else other people have posted to this discussion, after you already announced you didn't bother to read the whole article and may have missed the point, so you're under no obligation to subject yourself to any more arduous reading or point getting. http://www.drunkdrivingstats.org/menversuswomendrunkdrivingstatistics.html http://www.drunkdrivingstats.org/menversuswomendrunkdrivings... >Who Is At A Higher Risk Of Driving Drunk? >In 2010, men were responsible for four out of every five DUIs. And although only 11% of the adult population is made up of males between the ages of 21 and 34, this high-risk group was responsible for 32% of all drunk driving episodes. Last, but certainly not least, binge drinkers also fall into this high-risk group of those most likely to drink and drive. In fact, a male who drank at least five alcoholic beverages in a short amount of time (or a female who drank at least four) caused 85% of all reported drunk driving incidents. And as far as moral and social commentary goes, it's usually men who sexually harass drivers, and say things like "You hold her down, and I’ll keep her mouth busy" and then criticize other men for not laughing along. It's too bad that it hurts fragile male egos to read (or skim over, in your case) moral and social commentary instead of just dishing it out, but all the evidence supports it, so "man up". If you object to teaching science, history, facts, and statistics if they contradict your sexist, racist, and religious beliefs, or hurt your feelings by making you feel guilty about sexism and racism, then you could always move to Florida, which is now a "safe space" for bigots. Florida Senate passes GOP-backed ban on teaching students to 'feel guilt' for history: https://edition.cnn.com/2022/03/10/politics/florida-senate-crt-schools-businesses/index.html https://edition.cnn.com/2022/03/10/politics/florida-senate-c...

rendall 5y ago
> it's usually men who sexually harass drivers... It's too bad that it hurts fragile male egos to read (or skim over, in your case) moral and social commentary instead of just dishing it out, but all the evidence supports it, so "man up". You may share with the article writer a set of assumptions that makes it easier for you to understand what her point is. No need for hostility. I wrote what I wrote hoping that someone would explain it to me. You correctly deduced that I am a man. As a man who does not sexually harass women and shuts bad behavior down immediately when I see it, I'm baffled by rest of what you say here. My fragile ego? Because I missed the point of the article? I bear responsibility as a civilized human being for my fellow humans, even strangers. But it seems like you're saying that I bear culpability as a man for the behavior of the minority of men who behave violently or reprehensibly, specifically because I'm a man? Am I reading you correctly? If that's your belief, I can understand your hostility. It would seem to you as if I'm denying my personal culpability. If that's a belief shared by the writer, it makes sense now why you understood the article and I did not. To my mind, this kind of thinking is a category error to be avoided. It derives from assuming that, because most of the people who behave badly belong to some group, that therefore most members of that group behave badly. A corollary then is the idea all individuals of that group bear culpability for the actions of their most extreme individuals. As a human being, I bear responsibility to end bad behavior. If I were in a group of drunken men, and someone said something so reprehensible, I would shut it down. If it was a man I knew, I would apologize profusely to the driver, leaving a big tip; I would have a series of seriously uncomfortable conversation with this man in the days and weeks to follow. But that's because I am a civilized human being, not because I bear culpability as a man for his behavior. That's the way I see it, anyway. I have 2 related questions for you. Bear with me, and answer honestly: Are you a man? Do you believe that all men, deep down, are inherently violent rapists?
- DonHopkins 5y ago
  - rendall 5y ago
    > diminishes the author's arguments, and insults the author by calling him a woman Your tirade gets a pass after that statement. It is an embarrassing reveal. You apparently think it's an insult to be a woman. If you're a man, look inward. Your hatred and distrust of men is self hate. You can break free. Know that I'll read whatever you write next, but will not respond. Be well.