4 ms·

> The animals had positive emotions when nursing, reuniting with family, cuddling with litter mates and running freely. Negative emotions came from situations i

> The animals had positive emotions when nursing, reuniting with family, cuddling with litter mates and running freely. Negative emotions came from situations involving social isolation, fights, castration and waiting in a slaughterhouse. There's something deeply sad about this. Speaking as someone that regularly eats meat (I had bacon this morning), the prospect of animals have emotional inner lives is the #1 thing that makes me consider vegetarianism.

penneyd 5y ago
Agreed - and it was the positive emotions that got to me, do I really want to take that away from another living being, tough.
oh_sigh 5y ago
They definitely do. Spend some time with a pig and you'll stop eating them
- giantg2 5y ago
  Well... maybe not. I would have no trouble giving a pig a good life and then eating it.
  - tsol 5y ago
    I think it's having to watch it die that really horrifies people. I know someone who took his kids to a small farm to see a cow get slaughtered and help prepare the meat. At first I thought it was kind of messed up and unnecessary. But honestly after thinking about it, everyone should be doing that. People should see where their meat comes from, realize something had to lose it's life for that meal. People would care more about mistreatment in factory farmed meat if they had to see the real emotions of farm animals
    - cute_boi 5y ago
      I agree. I remember the following saying: "If slaughterhouses had glass walls, everyone would be vegetarian." I don't know if it is 100% true, but I am certain most people would turn into vegetarian. As time has passed due to ruthless industries, I think we should replace vegetarianism with veganism.
      - giantg2 5y ago
        The videos of slaughter houses and commercial farms is readily available. Many documentaries include it and it's even been broadcast on the news. Some people have made changes based on that, but I think it's a small number, not "most".
        cute_boi 5y ago
        I think there is difference between vicarious experience vs real view. I don't think I have ever seen any news related to egregious violation by animal industries. In fact, I think news are accomplice to such violation because they are afraid of negative PR and keep advertising "happy" cows, green farms as a mean of propaganda through advertisements. I think I can relate to this with war. If people see war with their eyes they would empathize it. But, if US media shows how they are doing some favor to humanity (like how media show how animal are important for human diet blah blah) many people are oblivious to war. I still hold my opinion that if human see the egregious violation of animal industry in real time, or they have to kill animal themself for food, most would abstain meat for sake of emotions.
        giantg2 5y ago
        "I don't think I have ever seen any news related to egregious violation by animal industries." Just search for it. There are articles and videos about it on various networks like NBC, fox, etc. "... or they have to kill animal themself for food, most would abstain meat for sake of emotions." Well, there are about 15 million hunters in the US. It's also reasonable to expect that many more people would start/return to to hunting if that were the only way to get meat. And for areas like cities where it's impractical, I think many people would not be bothered by having to kill a domestic animal for meat if it was the only way. 84% of vegetarians and vegans return to eating meat. Seems like pretty strong evidence to support the idea that a majority of people would still eat meat, even if they had to witness or perform the killing. Would a significant majority stop eating meat? Probably, but current levels are 2% vegetarian or vegan in the US. I don't see that going beyond 49% even if you had to kill the animal yourself. Any evidence to even tentatively support your side? https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/animals-and-us/201412/84-vegetarians-and-vegans-return-meat-why https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/animals-and-us/20141...
    - giantg2 5y ago
      I agree, and I hunt. I get good meat and at a low cost. The animal lives a good life, free to do as it pleases, gets a chance to reproduce, and gets a chance to escape/avoid. If I do succeed it's over very quickly. No stressful trip to a slaughter house, no CAFO, etc. It can also help avoid over population of specific species and associated issues like car accidents (although in many cases it's an imprudent driver). I would love to have higher quality, better treated meat than what's normally available in the grocery store. In some cases it's possible to get it at a local farm. Pork is tough to find that way. Chicken can be tough to find at a good price. Beef is actually pretty common and a fairly decent price. Although as a side note, they still have to endure the trip to the slaughter house to be USDA inspected.
      - nerdponx 5y ago
        As far as I can tell (not a hunter myself), getting shot through center mass seems like one of those least miserable ways that an animal can die in the wild. Starvation, disease, or being torn apart by a coyote all seem like worse and slower deaths.
hackernewds 5y ago
For the sake of discussion, what about vegetables having emotional inner lives? https://wanderlust.com/journal/new-study-illustrates-plants-know-when-they-are-being-eaten/ https://wanderlust.com/journal/new-study-illustrates-plants-...
- lofatdairy 5y ago
  While certainly interesting research, I don't think this necessarily supports plants having emotions and/or inner lives so much as it demonstrates a sensory-feedback loop. That said, whether we consider that as "pain", or what organisms we consider capable for feeling pain is an interesting question. I frequently bring DFW's Consider the Lobster up in my personal life just because it challenges our definition of "the capacity for pain" as convenient for peace of mind. FWIW I don't really bother trying to make ethical arguments for vegetarianism/veganism because of these tricky definition problems. I think it's a bit easier to argue for reduced meat consumption for ecological reasons, or to reduce the need for factory farming, etc.
- jallen_dot_dev 5y ago
  A chemical response to vibrations caused by insects chewing doesn't imply pain or any other emotion. Animals feel pain in part to learn in a dynamic environment, for example to run away from the source of pain. What evolutionary advantage would there be in a plant that feels pain or emotions?
- LodeOfCode 5y ago
  From a dietary perspective it's mostly irrelevant: due to thermodynamic inefficiencies, raising and consuming animal( product)s will inevitably involve farming more plants than eating them directly. So unless only some plant species have emotions, veganism is nevertheless the best one can do (short of synthesizing food from scratch at a molecular level) From an evolutionary perspective, I don't see why plants would have emotions. In animals it makes sense as a mechanism to steer our actions in a more survival-prone direction. But AFAIK plants have extremely limited agency, so I don't see why evolutionary pressures would favor the development of emotions in plants .
hutzlibu 5y ago
"the prospect of animals have emotional inner lives is the #1 thing that makes me consider vegetarianism." Why would you think, they have none in the first place? Because they cannot talk? Babies can't either. But they show their emotions. Just like any (higher) animal.
- jamestimmins 5y ago
  Some mix of the following: 1. I've spent very little time around farm animals 2. I've always eaten meat, so assuming lack of inner life is an easy way to make sense of that behavior ethically 3. Given their inability to communicate and comparatively small intelligence, it isn't clear how much awareness they possess.
giantg2 5y ago
"... makes me consider vegetarianism." You mean veganism? Egg chickens and milk cows generally don't have a life much better than this (in industrial operations).
pawsforthought 5y ago
If you can stomach it (and, frankly, I think anyone who eats meat should know how their food makes it to their plate), I suggest watching Earthlings [0] or Land of Hope and Glory [1]. For reference, an estimated 99% of all farmed animals in the US live in factory conditions [2]. [0]:https://youtu.be/8gqwpfEcBjI https://youtu.be/8gqwpfEcBjI [1]:https://youtu.be/dvtVkNofcq8 https://youtu.be/dvtVkNofcq8 [2]:https://www.sentienceinstitute.org/us-factory-farming-estimates https://www.sentienceinstitute.org/us-factory-farming-estima...
- nerdponx 5y ago
  If you prefer books, Eating Animals and The Omnivore's Dilemma are also classics and worth reading. As far as I know, not much has changed since those books were written.

penneyd 5y ago

Agreed - and it was the positive emotions that got to me, do I really want to take that away from another living being, tough.

oh_sigh 5y ago

They definitely do. Spend some time with a pig and you'll stop eating them

giantg2 5y ago
Well... maybe not. I would have no trouble giving a pig a good life and then eating it.
- tsol 5y ago
  I think it's having to watch it die that really horrifies people. I know someone who took his kids to a small farm to see a cow get slaughtered and help prepare the meat. At first I thought it was kind of messed up and unnecessary. But honestly after thinking about it, everyone should be doing that. People should see where their meat comes from, realize something had to lose it's life for that meal. People would care more about mistreatment in factory farmed meat if they had to see the real emotions of farm animals
  - cute_boi 5y ago
    I agree. I remember the following saying: "If slaughterhouses had glass walls, everyone would be vegetarian." I don't know if it is 100% true, but I am certain most people would turn into vegetarian. As time has passed due to ruthless industries, I think we should replace vegetarianism with veganism.
    - giantg2 5y ago
      The videos of slaughter houses and commercial farms is readily available. Many documentaries include it and it's even been broadcast on the news. Some people have made changes based on that, but I think it's a small number, not "most".
      - cute_boi 5y ago
        I think there is difference between vicarious experience vs real view. I don't think I have ever seen any news related to egregious violation by animal industries. In fact, I think news are accomplice to such violation because they are afraid of negative PR and keep advertising "happy" cows, green farms as a mean of propaganda through advertisements. I think I can relate to this with war. If people see war with their eyes they would empathize it. But, if US media shows how they are doing some favor to humanity (like how media show how animal are important for human diet blah blah) many people are oblivious to war. I still hold my opinion that if human see the egregious violation of animal industry in real time, or they have to kill animal themself for food, most would abstain meat for sake of emotions.
        giantg2 5y ago
        "I don't think I have ever seen any news related to egregious violation by animal industries." Just search for it. There are articles and videos about it on various networks like NBC, fox, etc. "... or they have to kill animal themself for food, most would abstain meat for sake of emotions." Well, there are about 15 million hunters in the US. It's also reasonable to expect that many more people would start/return to to hunting if that were the only way to get meat. And for areas like cities where it's impractical, I think many people would not be bothered by having to kill a domestic animal for meat if it was the only way. 84% of vegetarians and vegans return to eating meat. Seems like pretty strong evidence to support the idea that a majority of people would still eat meat, even if they had to witness or perform the killing. Would a significant majority stop eating meat? Probably, but current levels are 2% vegetarian or vegan in the US. I don't see that going beyond 49% even if you had to kill the animal yourself. Any evidence to even tentatively support your side? https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/animals-and-us/201412/84-vegetarians-and-vegans-return-meat-why https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/animals-and-us/20141...
  - giantg2 5y ago
    I agree, and I hunt. I get good meat and at a low cost. The animal lives a good life, free to do as it pleases, gets a chance to reproduce, and gets a chance to escape/avoid. If I do succeed it's over very quickly. No stressful trip to a slaughter house, no CAFO, etc. It can also help avoid over population of specific species and associated issues like car accidents (although in many cases it's an imprudent driver). I would love to have higher quality, better treated meat than what's normally available in the grocery store. In some cases it's possible to get it at a local farm. Pork is tough to find that way. Chicken can be tough to find at a good price. Beef is actually pretty common and a fairly decent price. Although as a side note, they still have to endure the trip to the slaughter house to be USDA inspected.
    - nerdponx 5y ago
      As far as I can tell (not a hunter myself), getting shot through center mass seems like one of those least miserable ways that an animal can die in the wild. Starvation, disease, or being torn apart by a coyote all seem like worse and slower deaths.

hackernewds 5y ago

For the sake of discussion, what about vegetables having emotional inner lives? https://wanderlust.com/journal/new-study-illustrates-plants-know-when-they-are-being-eaten/ https://wanderlust.com/journal/new-study-illustrates-plants-...

lofatdairy 5y ago
While certainly interesting research, I don't think this necessarily supports plants having emotions and/or inner lives so much as it demonstrates a sensory-feedback loop. That said, whether we consider that as "pain", or what organisms we consider capable for feeling pain is an interesting question. I frequently bring DFW's Consider the Lobster up in my personal life just because it challenges our definition of "the capacity for pain" as convenient for peace of mind. FWIW I don't really bother trying to make ethical arguments for vegetarianism/veganism because of these tricky definition problems. I think it's a bit easier to argue for reduced meat consumption for ecological reasons, or to reduce the need for factory farming, etc.
jallen_dot_dev 5y ago
A chemical response to vibrations caused by insects chewing doesn't imply pain or any other emotion. Animals feel pain in part to learn in a dynamic environment, for example to run away from the source of pain. What evolutionary advantage would there be in a plant that feels pain or emotions?
LodeOfCode 5y ago
From a dietary perspective it's mostly irrelevant: due to thermodynamic inefficiencies, raising and consuming animal( product)s will inevitably involve farming more plants than eating them directly. So unless only some plant species have emotions, veganism is nevertheless the best one can do (short of synthesizing food from scratch at a molecular level) From an evolutionary perspective, I don't see why plants would have emotions. In animals it makes sense as a mechanism to steer our actions in a more survival-prone direction. But AFAIK plants have extremely limited agency, so I don't see why evolutionary pressures would favor the development of emotions in plants .

hutzlibu 5y ago

"the prospect of animals have emotional inner lives is the #1 thing that makes me consider vegetarianism." Why would you think, they have none in the first place? Because they cannot talk? Babies can't either. But they show their emotions. Just like any (higher) animal.

jamestimmins 5y ago
Some mix of the following: 1. I've spent very little time around farm animals 2. I've always eaten meat, so assuming lack of inner life is an easy way to make sense of that behavior ethically 3. Given their inability to communicate and comparatively small intelligence, it isn't clear how much awareness they possess.

giantg2 5y ago

"... makes me consider vegetarianism." You mean veganism? Egg chickens and milk cows generally don't have a life much better than this (in industrial operations).

pawsforthought 5y ago

If you can stomach it (and, frankly, I think anyone who eats meat should know how their food makes it to their plate), I suggest watching Earthlings [0] or Land of Hope and Glory [1]. For reference, an estimated 99% of all farmed animals in the US live in factory conditions [2]. [0]:https://youtu.be/8gqwpfEcBjI https://youtu.be/8gqwpfEcBjI [1]:https://youtu.be/dvtVkNofcq8 https://youtu.be/dvtVkNofcq8 [2]:https://www.sentienceinstitute.org/us-factory-farming-estimates https://www.sentienceinstitute.org/us-factory-farming-estima...

nerdponx 5y ago
If you prefer books, Eating Animals and The Omnivore's Dilemma are also classics and worth reading. As far as I know, not much has changed since those books were written.