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If we're getting technical I think spending $272,000 on anything is going to have some environmental costs in line with spending $272,000.

by lasc4r 5y ago

teruakohatu 5y ago
Spending that much money on a truck probably generates no more emissions than a basic Ford F-150. Would an iPhone Pro Max produce much more emissions than a iPhone SE? But from an environmental, not spending the money in the first place (not upgrading a car or phone) in both cases would be a net win for the environment.
- eru 5y ago
  What do you mean by not spending? If you just take the money and bury it in your backyard forever, the central bank will just replace it after a while. (Assuming a typical inflation targeting central bank. And also in aggregate, because the central bank doesn't know exactly how much money is getting buried; but they do monitor total spending in the economy.) If you leave the money in the bank, the bank invests it. If you want to make a positive difference, you can use the money to contribute to eg carbon reduction efforts. The rest of what you are saying is right: there's better and worse ways to spend that money. (In the worst case, you could buy a few tons of coal and just set them on fire.) I'm just saying that earning money and not spending it at all, doesn't automatically mean zero net emissions.
  - hgomersall 5y ago
    Loans create deposits, not the other way around. Your broader point that in a rational society money will never be a limiting factor is good though.
    - eru 5y ago
      It's good we agree on the main point. But since we are at it: loans create deposits only in some narrow technical sense, but not in practice. You are right than in the logical second when a bank makes a loan, they just create a pair of accounting entries out of thin air. One entry in your checking account, and one entry to record the loan. I hope you agree that most people don't take out loan to let the money just sit in their account: they spent it. For simplicity, let's assume the common case that the people the debtor spends their money at, don't have an account with our bank. Our bank loses reserves, when people spend deposits. It doesn't matter whether they spend via withdrawing as cash first or whether they make a bank transfer. A bank can not operate with negative reserves. They get more reserves by either accepting deposits or by borrowing them. Does this make sense to you? If not, where am I going wrong? and why do you think banks accept deposits in the first place or issue bonds in their name etc? (For simplicity, let's assume no (positive) legal minimum reserve requirements. But also let's assume that banks need a positive level of reserves to operate; eg to pay out withdrawals and net-settle interbank transfers. If you want to challenge those assumptions, we can do that, too. But please say so explicitly. Thanks!)
      - hgomersall 5y ago
        In the UK there are no legal reserve requirements on lending. Similarly in the US for business lending. Basel III makes no mention of reserves, but it does talk about liquidity. Liquidity can be and is met through interbank lending, with the center bank filling in as necessary. https://www.bankofengland.co.uk/quarterly-bulletin/2014/q1/money-creation-in-the-modern-economy https://www.bankofengland.co.uk/quarterly-bulletin/2014/q1/m... https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basel_III https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basel_III http://www.debtdeflation.com/blogs/2009/01/31/therovingcavaliersofcredit/ http://www.debtdeflation.com/blogs/2009/01/31/therovingcaval... https://positivemoney.org/2011/04/monetary-reform-myths-1-10/ https://positivemoney.org/2011/04/monetary-reform-myths-1-10... A nice bonus link on interest rates not necessarily controlling inflation in the expected way: https://new-wayland.com/blog/interest-price-spiral/ https://new-wayland.com/blog/interest-price-spiral/
        eru 5y ago
        Why do you think banks accept deposits at all?
        hgomersall 5y ago
        Mostly cheap liquidity: https://www.resilience.org/stories/2014-10-28/why-do-banks-want-our-deposits-hint-it-s-not-to-make-loans/ https://www.resilience.org/stories/2014-10-28/why-do-banks-w... For the same reason they pay interest on deposits: https://new-wayland.com/blog/why-banks-pay-interest-on-deposits/ https://new-wayland.com/blog/why-banks-pay-interest-on-depos...

If we're getting technical I think spending $272,000 on anything is going to have some environmental costs in line with spending $272,000.

by lasc4r 5y ago

If we're getting technical I think spending $272,000 on anything is going to have some environmental costs in line with spending $272,000.

teruakohatu 5y ago

Spending that much money on a truck probably generates no more emissions than a basic Ford F-150. Would an iPhone Pro Max produce much more emissions than a iPhone SE? But from an environmental, not spending the money in the first place (not upgrading a car or phone) in both cases would be a net win for the environment.

eru 5y ago
What do you mean by not spending? If you just take the money and bury it in your backyard forever, the central bank will just replace it after a while. (Assuming a typical inflation targeting central bank. And also in aggregate, because the central bank doesn't know exactly how much money is getting buried; but they do monitor total spending in the economy.) If you leave the money in the bank, the bank invests it. If you want to make a positive difference, you can use the money to contribute to eg carbon reduction efforts. The rest of what you are saying is right: there's better and worse ways to spend that money. (In the worst case, you could buy a few tons of coal and just set them on fire.) I'm just saying that earning money and not spending it at all, doesn't automatically mean zero net emissions.
- hgomersall 5y ago
  Loans create deposits, not the other way around. Your broader point that in a rational society money will never be a limiting factor is good though.
  - eru 5y ago
    It's good we agree on the main point. But since we are at it: loans create deposits only in some narrow technical sense, but not in practice. You are right than in the logical second when a bank makes a loan, they just create a pair of accounting entries out of thin air. One entry in your checking account, and one entry to record the loan. I hope you agree that most people don't take out loan to let the money just sit in their account: they spent it. For simplicity, let's assume the common case that the people the debtor spends their money at, don't have an account with our bank. Our bank loses reserves, when people spend deposits. It doesn't matter whether they spend via withdrawing as cash first or whether they make a bank transfer. A bank can not operate with negative reserves. They get more reserves by either accepting deposits or by borrowing them. Does this make sense to you? If not, where am I going wrong? and why do you think banks accept deposits in the first place or issue bonds in their name etc? (For simplicity, let's assume no (positive) legal minimum reserve requirements. But also let's assume that banks need a positive level of reserves to operate; eg to pay out withdrawals and net-settle interbank transfers. If you want to challenge those assumptions, we can do that, too. But please say so explicitly. Thanks!)
    - hgomersall 5y ago
      In the UK there are no legal reserve requirements on lending. Similarly in the US for business lending. Basel III makes no mention of reserves, but it does talk about liquidity. Liquidity can be and is met through interbank lending, with the center bank filling in as necessary. https://www.bankofengland.co.uk/quarterly-bulletin/2014/q1/money-creation-in-the-modern-economy https://www.bankofengland.co.uk/quarterly-bulletin/2014/q1/m... https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basel_III https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basel_III http://www.debtdeflation.com/blogs/2009/01/31/therovingcavaliersofcredit/ http://www.debtdeflation.com/blogs/2009/01/31/therovingcaval... https://positivemoney.org/2011/04/monetary-reform-myths-1-10/ https://positivemoney.org/2011/04/monetary-reform-myths-1-10... A nice bonus link on interest rates not necessarily controlling inflation in the expected way: https://new-wayland.com/blog/interest-price-spiral/ https://new-wayland.com/blog/interest-price-spiral/
      - eru 5y ago
        Why do you think banks accept deposits at all?
        hgomersall 5y ago
        Mostly cheap liquidity: https://www.resilience.org/stories/2014-10-28/why-do-banks-want-our-deposits-hint-it-s-not-to-make-loans/ https://www.resilience.org/stories/2014-10-28/why-do-banks-w... For the same reason they pay interest on deposits: https://new-wayland.com/blog/why-banks-pay-interest-on-deposits/ https://new-wayland.com/blog/why-banks-pay-interest-on-depos...