4 ms·

My understanding is that, once you're a citizen of Israel, you have the same rights as other Israeli citizens, regardless of race or religion. Under apartheid,

My understanding is that, once you're a citizen of Israel, you have the same rights as other Israeli citizens, regardless of race or religion. Under apartheid, rights were infringed based on race.

mabbo 5y ago
But is it really so different if we replace race with religion? Israel doesn't recognize people who join the religion- it's effectively based on birth just as much as race. We have a government over a people that determines the rights of each person based on who their parents were. That's the core concept that I, for one, am opposed to.
- ashwagary 5y ago
  >But is it really so different if we replace race with religion? They aren't completely replacing race with religion, many Palestinians are black and my understanding is Israel is quite racist towards its black Jewish population as well. European Settler colonialism has historically been quite racist.
  - rudimental 5y ago
    How many and what % of Palestinians are black? How many and what % of Israelis are black? By black do you mean having darker skin tones? If so, many Jewish Israelis are black - as are many Palestinians - and not just those that came to Israel from Ethiopia. Also, many Israelis are white (as in light skinned) as are many Palestinians. The average Israeli is Mizrahi (of North African / Middle Eastern origin).
    - tga_d 5y ago
      I'm not sure why you think any of this is relevant to the point being made, but since you seem to be actually ignorant of the matter: blackness is a racial identifier, not a matter of skin tone. Skin tone is certainly part of racialization, but regardless of how dark or light someone's skin is, they may or may not be racialized as black, and therefore may or may not be subject to anti-black racism.
danudey 5y ago
I see the distinction here. In South Africa you could be a citizen regardless of your race, but how you were treated depended on your race; citizens were not equal. In Israel, they are trying to prevent people of a certain race from becoming citizens, but once you are a citizen, there are fewer 'official' racist policies even if a lot of the people you have to deal with are outwardly racist anyway. On paper, citizens are (largely) equal.
- chmod600 5y ago
  In other words, it doesn't meet the definition of apartheid. You can make an analogy to apartheid. It's up to others to determine if the analogy fits the point you are making though.
  - yosefjaved1 5y ago
    There is an entire Wikipedia article going over this exact issue. It looks like people have been arguing about this analogy for awhile now. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel_and_the_apartheid_analogy https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel_and_the_apartheid_ana...
caeril 5y ago
> Under apartheid, rights were infringed based on race. This is a good point. Israel totally doesn't deny entry, immigration, work visa status, citizenship, and even recognition as Jewish to black Jews: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethiopian_Jews_in_Israel#Absorption_in_Israel https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethiopian_Jews_in_Israel#Absor... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/African_Hebrew_Israelites_in_Israel#Status_in_Israel https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/African_Hebrew_Israelites_in_I...
- chmod600 5y ago
  Immigration is not generally regarded as a right, nor is recognition of membership by a particular religious structure. And racism by itself doesn't appear to constitute apartheid.
zaphirplane 5y ago
You don’t have the same right to marry who you want thou (where the other person agrees to be explicit)

My understanding is that, once you're a citizen of Israel, you have the same rights as other Israeli citizens, regardless of race or religion. Under apartheid, rights were infringed based on race.

mabbo 5y ago

But is it really so different if we replace race with religion? Israel doesn't recognize people who join the religion- it's effectively based on birth just as much as race. We have a government over a people that determines the rights of each person based on who their parents were. That's the core concept that I, for one, am opposed to.

ashwagary 5y ago
>But is it really so different if we replace race with religion? They aren't completely replacing race with religion, many Palestinians are black and my understanding is Israel is quite racist towards its black Jewish population as well. European Settler colonialism has historically been quite racist.
- rudimental 5y ago
  How many and what % of Palestinians are black? How many and what % of Israelis are black? By black do you mean having darker skin tones? If so, many Jewish Israelis are black - as are many Palestinians - and not just those that came to Israel from Ethiopia. Also, many Israelis are white (as in light skinned) as are many Palestinians. The average Israeli is Mizrahi (of North African / Middle Eastern origin).
  - tga_d 5y ago
    I'm not sure why you think any of this is relevant to the point being made, but since you seem to be actually ignorant of the matter: blackness is a racial identifier, not a matter of skin tone. Skin tone is certainly part of racialization, but regardless of how dark or light someone's skin is, they may or may not be racialized as black, and therefore may or may not be subject to anti-black racism.

danudey 5y ago

I see the distinction here. In South Africa you could be a citizen regardless of your race, but how you were treated depended on your race; citizens were not equal. In Israel, they are trying to prevent people of a certain race from becoming citizens, but once you are a citizen, there are fewer 'official' racist policies even if a lot of the people you have to deal with are outwardly racist anyway. On paper, citizens are (largely) equal.

chmod600 5y ago
In other words, it doesn't meet the definition of apartheid. You can make an analogy to apartheid. It's up to others to determine if the analogy fits the point you are making though.
- yosefjaved1 5y ago
  There is an entire Wikipedia article going over this exact issue. It looks like people have been arguing about this analogy for awhile now. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel_and_the_apartheid_analogy https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel_and_the_apartheid_ana...

caeril 5y ago

> Under apartheid, rights were infringed based on race. This is a good point. Israel totally doesn't deny entry, immigration, work visa status, citizenship, and even recognition as Jewish to black Jews: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethiopian_Jews_in_Israel#Absorption_in_Israel https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethiopian_Jews_in_Israel#Absor... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/African_Hebrew_Israelites_in_Israel#Status_in_Israel https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/African_Hebrew_Israelites_in_I...

chmod600 5y ago
Immigration is not generally regarded as a right, nor is recognition of membership by a particular religious structure. And racism by itself doesn't appear to constitute apartheid.

zaphirplane 5y ago

You don’t have the same right to marry who you want thou (where the other person agrees to be explicit)