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Genocidal war is not what is occurring. It is a land war where Putin wants to gain access to and control significant resources and a warm body of water in the s

Genocidal war is not what is occurring. It is a land war where Putin wants to gain access to and control significant resources and a warm body of water in the southeast.

trhway 5y ago
It is a genocidal war because Ukrainians are being killed and displaced for refusal to accept a Russian identity. Putin is pretty clear in denying to Ukrainians their identity and statehood. His plans for Ukrainians are like that of Hitler who wanted that land too for Slavic people - displacement and killing of resisting ones, conversion to "Russian" identity for the rest on those lands with limited statehood under control of the Great Russia.
- theandrewbailey 5y ago
  A genocidal war is when someone kills an entire group of people over immutable characteristics. One country refusing to accept another country's power doesn't make a genocidal war. Your definition of genocide suggests that every war ever fought was genocidal, which is clearly not the case.
  - ModernMech 5y ago
    It's one thing to take over a territory from a controlling entity like a government or a king. It's another thing to take over a territory and claim that you're doing so because the ruling regime are Nazis, when they're not; and you're saving the people because they're Russians, when they're not. It's even quite another thing to embrace the ones who welcome your rewriting of history while murdering those who reject it. That's what elevates this to a genocide rather than just a territory grab.
- _-david-_ 5y ago
  Russians are also dying. That means Ukraine is committing genocide on the Russians, right?
  - trhway 5y ago
    https://www.un.org/en/genocideprevention/genocide.shtml https://www.un.org/en/genocideprevention/genocide.shtml Now show an official Ukraine policy documents declaring targeting Russians based on Russian national or ethnic identity. A pattern of such activity without official policy documents would do to. Though for example the fact that mostly Russians are killed in the invading tanks doesn't qualify because it is just happens that the tanks are manned mostly by Russians and those Russians are killed not for being Russians, they are killed for driving invading tanks. For the current genocide conducted by Russia in Ukraine Putin's editorial and speeches, including the speech declaring the war, declaring erasure of Ukrainian national and ethnic identity are such official policy documents.
- 8note 5y ago
  Is it a Russian identity, or being a russian vassal that's required? Denial of sovereignty isn't genocide
  - trhway 5y ago
    >Denial of sovereignty isn't genocide The denial of sovereignty here is just a tool to achieve the goal Putin openly declared in particular in his editorial and speeches - erasing of Ukrainians national identity. In order to achieve that goal he kills and displaces carriers of that national and ethnic identity, ie. Ukrainians, and that is genocide. This is what Russia exactly does in Ukraine: https://www.un.org/en/genocideprevention/genocide.shtml https://www.un.org/en/genocideprevention/genocide.shtml " In the present Convention, genocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such: Killing members of the group; Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group; Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part; "
colinmhayes 5y ago
I would agree that this isn't genocide, but the russian forces are playing extremely loose with civilian casualties. It's clear that Putin is trying to destroy Ukrainian culture/independent spirit which could be considered a form of genocide I guess.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- trhway 5y ago
  >the russian forces are playing extremely loose with civilian casualties. one of the main reason for the indiscriminate shelling and bombing of the cities that Russia conducts is displacement of Ukrainians into the West Ukraine and farther, i.e. ethnical cleansing. The much smaller population left will as a a result have a [scared] pro-Russian majority and will "democratically" vote for the government of Ukraine (or whatever part of Ukraine Russia wants to hold, and they would prefer it to include Kiev as that would make it "Ukraine") doing what Russia wants.
- future-garten 5y ago
  Back then when Soviet Union troops were in Afghanistan, I believe, that western propaganda used the same words: independent spirit, culture, freedom, civilian casualties. However, when USA troops came to Afghanistan... Of course american troops were fighting terrorists. They did no harm to civilians, they came to spread freedom, boost independent spirit, and significantly contributed to Afghan culture.
  - yellowapple 5y ago
    Just because the US does a bad thing doesn't mean Russia is justified in doing it.
    - 8note 5y ago
      The US, being the hegemon, sets the standard on whats acceptable for interactions between countries
ModernMech 5y ago
um... there's a huge subtext going on here that you are glossing over. Putin has said that the greatest tragedy of the 20th century was the fall of the Soviet union. He has intoned that he wishes to restore the former glory of the Soviet Union in Russia. He is now currently displaying on state run media, images of tanks flying the soviet flag as they invade Ukraine. He has called into question the very nature of the Ukrainian state as a legitimate entity. He has called into question the very nature the Ukrainian people as a legitimate ethnic group, claiming they are in fact Russians. He is now conducting a war which encroaches on their national identity by invading its borders, and he is engaged in specifically targeting civilians, including hospitals and fleeing refugees. He is also engaged in a vast information war against Ukrainians, and if he's successful in taking over Ukraine that information war will come to them as well. This isn't merely about gaining access to a port, this is about erasing a people, its history, and its identity. I've gotta say, if this is not recognizable as genocidal war to you, can you please lay down a firm line that needs to be crossed before you apply that term? Because the way things are going if Putin doesn't cross it today, he will soon enough. Because what do you think happens if Putin takes over Ukraine? When you look at the images of the bombed hospitals, what do you think happens next, after the brutal dictator takes over the country filled with people whom he claims are Nazis?
- 8note 5y ago
  For the Russian Empire, it was, the same as if the American states fell apart into smaller groups. Doubly so since the USSR manipulated borders to be bad like sykes-picot
pjmlp 5y ago
I have other words for killing civilians.
nuccy 5y ago
No, it's not about land, but about people. Russians use casette bombs in cities [1], try to circle and lock cities while continuing to bomb them [2]. Russian pilots know they bomb civil buildings following the orders and continue doing so [3]. Wikipedia defines genocide as: > Genocide is the intentional destruction of a people, usually defined as an ethnic, national, racial, or religious group. We can call it as we want. History will judge. But we know the duck test: if it looks like a duck, swims like a duck, and quacks like a duck, then it probably is a duck. 1. https://www.reuters.com/world/un-rights-office-has-credible-reports-russian-cluster-bomb-use-ukraine-2022-03-11/ https://www.reuters.com/world/un-rights-office-has-credible-... 2. https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2022/3/11/hell-in-ukraines-mariupol-as-russians-attack-every-30-mins https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2022/3/11/hell-in-ukraines-ma... 3. https://www.newsweek.com/russia-ukraine-putin-pilot-shot-civilian-1687191 https://www.newsweek.com/russia-ukraine-putin-pilot-shot-civ...
jdkee 5y ago
Perhaps you should review the relevant standards on "genocide" before commenting. See https://www.un.org/en/genocideprevention/genocide.shtml https://www.un.org/en/genocideprevention/genocide.shtml

Genocidal war is not what is occurring. It is a land war where Putin wants to gain access to and control significant resources and a warm body of water in the southeast.

trhway 5y ago

It is a genocidal war because Ukrainians are being killed and displaced for refusal to accept a Russian identity. Putin is pretty clear in denying to Ukrainians their identity and statehood. His plans for Ukrainians are like that of Hitler who wanted that land too for Slavic people - displacement and killing of resisting ones, conversion to "Russian" identity for the rest on those lands with limited statehood under control of the Great Russia.

theandrewbailey 5y ago
A genocidal war is when someone kills an entire group of people over immutable characteristics. One country refusing to accept another country's power doesn't make a genocidal war. Your definition of genocide suggests that every war ever fought was genocidal, which is clearly not the case.
- ModernMech 5y ago
  It's one thing to take over a territory from a controlling entity like a government or a king. It's another thing to take over a territory and claim that you're doing so because the ruling regime are Nazis, when they're not; and you're saving the people because they're Russians, when they're not. It's even quite another thing to embrace the ones who welcome your rewriting of history while murdering those who reject it. That's what elevates this to a genocide rather than just a territory grab.
_-david-_ 5y ago
Russians are also dying. That means Ukraine is committing genocide on the Russians, right?
- trhway 5y ago
  https://www.un.org/en/genocideprevention/genocide.shtml https://www.un.org/en/genocideprevention/genocide.shtml Now show an official Ukraine policy documents declaring targeting Russians based on Russian national or ethnic identity. A pattern of such activity without official policy documents would do to. Though for example the fact that mostly Russians are killed in the invading tanks doesn't qualify because it is just happens that the tanks are manned mostly by Russians and those Russians are killed not for being Russians, they are killed for driving invading tanks. For the current genocide conducted by Russia in Ukraine Putin's editorial and speeches, including the speech declaring the war, declaring erasure of Ukrainian national and ethnic identity are such official policy documents.
8note 5y ago
Is it a Russian identity, or being a russian vassal that's required? Denial of sovereignty isn't genocide
- trhway 5y ago
  >Denial of sovereignty isn't genocide The denial of sovereignty here is just a tool to achieve the goal Putin openly declared in particular in his editorial and speeches - erasing of Ukrainians national identity. In order to achieve that goal he kills and displaces carriers of that national and ethnic identity, ie. Ukrainians, and that is genocide. This is what Russia exactly does in Ukraine: https://www.un.org/en/genocideprevention/genocide.shtml https://www.un.org/en/genocideprevention/genocide.shtml " In the present Convention, genocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such: Killing members of the group; Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group; Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part; "

colinmhayes 5y ago

I would agree that this isn't genocide, but the russian forces are playing extremely loose with civilian casualties. It's clear that Putin is trying to destroy Ukrainian culture/independent spirit which could be considered a form of genocide I guess.

deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
trhway 5y ago
>the russian forces are playing extremely loose with civilian casualties. one of the main reason for the indiscriminate shelling and bombing of the cities that Russia conducts is displacement of Ukrainians into the West Ukraine and farther, i.e. ethnical cleansing. The much smaller population left will as a a result have a [scared] pro-Russian majority and will "democratically" vote for the government of Ukraine (or whatever part of Ukraine Russia wants to hold, and they would prefer it to include Kiev as that would make it "Ukraine") doing what Russia wants.
future-garten 5y ago
Back then when Soviet Union troops were in Afghanistan, I believe, that western propaganda used the same words: independent spirit, culture, freedom, civilian casualties. However, when USA troops came to Afghanistan... Of course american troops were fighting terrorists. They did no harm to civilians, they came to spread freedom, boost independent spirit, and significantly contributed to Afghan culture.
- yellowapple 5y ago
  Just because the US does a bad thing doesn't mean Russia is justified in doing it.
  - 8note 5y ago
    The US, being the hegemon, sets the standard on whats acceptable for interactions between countries

ModernMech 5y ago

um... there's a huge subtext going on here that you are glossing over. Putin has said that the greatest tragedy of the 20th century was the fall of the Soviet union. He has intoned that he wishes to restore the former glory of the Soviet Union in Russia. He is now currently displaying on state run media, images of tanks flying the soviet flag as they invade Ukraine. He has called into question the very nature of the Ukrainian state as a legitimate entity. He has called into question the very nature the Ukrainian people as a legitimate ethnic group, claiming they are in fact Russians. He is now conducting a war which encroaches on their national identity by invading its borders, and he is engaged in specifically targeting civilians, including hospitals and fleeing refugees. He is also engaged in a vast information war against Ukrainians, and if he's successful in taking over Ukraine that information war will come to them as well. This isn't merely about gaining access to a port, this is about erasing a people, its history, and its identity. I've gotta say, if this is not recognizable as genocidal war to you, can you please lay down a firm line that needs to be crossed before you apply that term? Because the way things are going if Putin doesn't cross it today, he will soon enough. Because what do you think happens if Putin takes over Ukraine? When you look at the images of the bombed hospitals, what do you think happens next, after the brutal dictator takes over the country filled with people whom he claims are Nazis?

8note 5y ago
For the Russian Empire, it was, the same as if the American states fell apart into smaller groups. Doubly so since the USSR manipulated borders to be bad like sykes-picot

pjmlp 5y ago

I have other words for killing civilians.

nuccy 5y ago

No, it's not about land, but about people. Russians use casette bombs in cities [1], try to circle and lock cities while continuing to bomb them [2]. Russian pilots know they bomb civil buildings following the orders and continue doing so [3]. Wikipedia defines genocide as: > Genocide is the intentional destruction of a people, usually defined as an ethnic, national, racial, or religious group. We can call it as we want. History will judge. But we know the duck test: if it looks like a duck, swims like a duck, and quacks like a duck, then it probably is a duck. 1. https://www.reuters.com/world/un-rights-office-has-credible-reports-russian-cluster-bomb-use-ukraine-2022-03-11/ https://www.reuters.com/world/un-rights-office-has-credible-... 2. https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2022/3/11/hell-in-ukraines-mariupol-as-russians-attack-every-30-mins https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2022/3/11/hell-in-ukraines-ma... 3. https://www.newsweek.com/russia-ukraine-putin-pilot-shot-civilian-1687191 https://www.newsweek.com/russia-ukraine-putin-pilot-shot-civ...

jdkee 5y ago

Perhaps you should review the relevant standards on "genocide" before commenting. See https://www.un.org/en/genocideprevention/genocide.shtml https://www.un.org/en/genocideprevention/genocide.shtml