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The problem is that your average Joe now needs an engineering degree or at least understanding of how a CAN bus works, how to properly terminate it and basicall

by petre 5y ago

The problem is that your average Joe now needs an engineering degree or at least understanding of how a CAN bus works, how to properly terminate it and basically use a CAN to serial convertor to read tge messages which aren't always standardized. I agree that it's more flexible but you need a highly qualified professional and the right tools to work on the vehicle. I'm working with CAN networks myself but I still need an experienced electronics engineer when I get in trouble. In addition, most manufacturers add proprietary extensions and most of the work involves a fair amount of reverse engineering or NDAs.

kube-system 5y ago
I have a long lost relative who quit their job when their employer upgraded from horses to automobiles. They knew how horses and wagons worked, but working on what is now very simple mechanical engines, was way beyond what they were willing to learn. Technology changes and you can either learn it or not. Specialization of labor does make everything more complicated, but I'm glad I'm not having to grow my own vegetables or pump my own well water, despite the fact that I have no clue how modern farming or water treatment work. I suspect transportation will continue to become more specialized just like everything else.
- Spooky23 5y ago
  Sometimes folks like that actually aren’t Luddite’s, but deeply understand a process. Case in point, I have a former high school friend who runs a farm that’s about 50 acres as his primary business - without major machinery. They have quads and pickup trucks, but most applications where one would use a tractor are now done with animal power. The result? It’s actually cheaper to operate as grass is cheaper than diesel. He’s not getting rich, but makes as decent living.
  - floren 5y ago
    I'm really interested in learning more about this. Does he have a website? I've sat down and run some numbers before and it definitely seems feasible, but that's just back-of-the-napkin estimation. I grew up on a farm, but of course we were fully mechanized.
- wlesieutre 5y ago
  If you're ever curious what getting into modern farming might be like, give Clarkson's Farm a watch. Very enjoyable series.
  - floren 5y ago
    My main complaint with Clarkson's Farm is that his approach to every problem was "which piece of equipment can we purchase to solve this?" Not very surprising if you know Jeremy Clarkson, I know.
- oceanplexian 5y ago
  I think technology changes but it doesn’t need to be hostile. An electric car, for all intents and purposes should be substantially easier to repair, diagnose, and work on, but manufacturers are doing things like using proprietary signaling protocols, locking out third party parts, and putting complex software in the place of simple and reliable hardware. Electric cars aren’t new, they’ve been around since the 90s and it was perfectly possible to create one without the “smart” nonsense we are seeing today. My car doesn’t need to report my location to a database or have a manufacturer kill-switch and it doesn’t make one a Luddite for feeling that way.
  - orangepurple 5y ago
    The Chinese are our last hope. Since they have total disregard for IP and NDAs we can get scanners and tools from them that actually let us circumvent arbitrary manufacturer limitations
  - userbinator 5y ago
    Electric cars aren’t new, they’ve been around since the 90s The 1890s, to be precise... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Thomas_Parker_Electric_car.jpg https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Thomas_Parker_Electric_ca...
- jjav 5y ago
  > Technology changes and you can either learn it or not. That's not the main problem with newer cars. The problem is that much of the required knowledge is intentionally kept proprietary so there is no way for regular people to fix it regardless of how much they want to learn it.
sokoloff 5y ago
There's an awful lot of people on enthusiast forums who quite clearly have no idea what they're doing, let alone have an engineering degree, and are able to connect to their CAN bus, add "magic boxes" (from their perspective) that change the behavior of the car/truck, add displays of onboard telemetry, or some other feature. Only a tiny sliver of people need to understand how CAN actually works. Most Average-Joes just need to know how to connect (which is often done just via plugging into the OBD2 port, giving a keyed connector with power, ground, and at least one CAN bus). As a hobby, I sell a low-volume device for a niche vehicle that works exactly this way. I assure that almost none of my users have any idea how a computer works, let alone anything physical on the CAN bus or what an MCP2515 or 120 ohm resistor is.
- petre 5y ago
  You only get a very limited set of diagnostics info through the OBD2 port. I'll probably get one of the Macchina devices to play with as well.
  - sokoloff 5y ago
    That depends on the car. Many have the main CAN bus fully exposed on pins 6/14 and some of those have bridges to other CAN buses in the car connected.

by petre 5y ago

kube-system 5y ago

I have a long lost relative who quit their job when their employer upgraded from horses to automobiles. They knew how horses and wagons worked, but working on what is now very simple mechanical engines, was way beyond what they were willing to learn. Technology changes and you can either learn it or not. Specialization of labor does make everything more complicated, but I'm glad I'm not having to grow my own vegetables or pump my own well water, despite the fact that I have no clue how modern farming or water treatment work. I suspect transportation will continue to become more specialized just like everything else.

Spooky23 5y ago
Sometimes folks like that actually aren’t Luddite’s, but deeply understand a process. Case in point, I have a former high school friend who runs a farm that’s about 50 acres as his primary business - without major machinery. They have quads and pickup trucks, but most applications where one would use a tractor are now done with animal power. The result? It’s actually cheaper to operate as grass is cheaper than diesel. He’s not getting rich, but makes as decent living.
- floren 5y ago
  I'm really interested in learning more about this. Does he have a website? I've sat down and run some numbers before and it definitely seems feasible, but that's just back-of-the-napkin estimation. I grew up on a farm, but of course we were fully mechanized.
wlesieutre 5y ago
If you're ever curious what getting into modern farming might be like, give Clarkson's Farm a watch. Very enjoyable series.
- floren 5y ago
  My main complaint with Clarkson's Farm is that his approach to every problem was "which piece of equipment can we purchase to solve this?" Not very surprising if you know Jeremy Clarkson, I know.
oceanplexian 5y ago
I think technology changes but it doesn’t need to be hostile. An electric car, for all intents and purposes should be substantially easier to repair, diagnose, and work on, but manufacturers are doing things like using proprietary signaling protocols, locking out third party parts, and putting complex software in the place of simple and reliable hardware. Electric cars aren’t new, they’ve been around since the 90s and it was perfectly possible to create one without the “smart” nonsense we are seeing today. My car doesn’t need to report my location to a database or have a manufacturer kill-switch and it doesn’t make one a Luddite for feeling that way.
- orangepurple 5y ago
  The Chinese are our last hope. Since they have total disregard for IP and NDAs we can get scanners and tools from them that actually let us circumvent arbitrary manufacturer limitations
- userbinator 5y ago
  Electric cars aren’t new, they’ve been around since the 90s The 1890s, to be precise... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Thomas_Parker_Electric_car.jpg https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Thomas_Parker_Electric_ca...
jjav 5y ago
> Technology changes and you can either learn it or not. That's not the main problem with newer cars. The problem is that much of the required knowledge is intentionally kept proprietary so there is no way for regular people to fix it regardless of how much they want to learn it.

sokoloff 5y ago

There's an awful lot of people on enthusiast forums who quite clearly have no idea what they're doing, let alone have an engineering degree, and are able to connect to their CAN bus, add "magic boxes" (from their perspective) that change the behavior of the car/truck, add displays of onboard telemetry, or some other feature. Only a tiny sliver of people need to understand how CAN actually works. Most Average-Joes just need to know how to connect (which is often done just via plugging into the OBD2 port, giving a keyed connector with power, ground, and at least one CAN bus). As a hobby, I sell a low-volume device for a niche vehicle that works exactly this way. I assure that almost none of my users have any idea how a computer works, let alone anything physical on the CAN bus or what an MCP2515 or 120 ohm resistor is.

petre 5y ago
You only get a very limited set of diagnostics info through the OBD2 port. I'll probably get one of the Macchina devices to play with as well.
- sokoloff 5y ago
  That depends on the car. Many have the main CAN bus fully exposed on pins 6/14 and some of those have bridges to other CAN buses in the car connected.