4 ms·

It is just part of a human-centric session initiation protocol. A major reason people do it is to query presence-at-keyboard before continuing. Maybe the matte

by _jal 5y ago

It is just part of a human-centric session initiation protocol. A major reason people do it is to query presence-at-keyboard before continuing. Maybe the matter is time sensitive, maybe they don't want to disclose something immediately without setting context, finding something out first, whatever.

saurik 5y ago
Right: I think everyone gets that; but it is that very concept that is irksome, as the entire reason to use chat apps for many people is to NOT have presence-at-keyboard EVER. Like, the answer to "are you there?" is, an hour later, "no", followed by immediately task switching away from the window again. The "no" is honest: I wasn't there when you asked, and I also am not really there now either. It is akin to trying to obtain synchronous communication with someone by sending them a letter with "hey, you there?" and a month later getting back "yo! what's up!"... you didn't really achieve much other than "this communication mechanism worked once"; and, if you want to do that in a way that makes it clear you aren't trying to establish synchronous communication--•I am sorry, but I am new to chat: are you actually seeing this message?"--I am more OK playing along. The goal here--and I think a better way to present it than just trying to say "don't say hello" or trying to point out that someone else is being rude (which is a subjective way of analyzing things that I think people should avoid without empathy)--is in some sense to teach people what asynchronous communication means and how to achieve it, as I honestly don't want to and kind of can't have synchronous communication with anyone whom I don't really really really care about at the level of "a close personal friend or loved one" (and then if you find that rude, I guess you will have to deal with synchronously talking to someone else, at best my assistant, as I just really don't have time to synchronously talk with random people; but that's the problem: I know "hi; you there?" is a trap to try to make me feel bad for not staying synchronous once you pounce on my answer later).
- _jal 5y ago
  Yeah, it is tricky. Chat sits in this in-between semi-synchronous zone that different people want to treat as slightly more or slightly less synced. And that's where the disconnect happens. "Helloers" want more sync, it appears many here want less.
IceMetalPunk 5y ago
"A major reason people do it is to query presence-at-keyboard before continuing." That's what in-app statuses are for: so they don't have to wait for an answer to that, they can just look. "Maybe the matter is time sensitive." Asking whether I'm there and waiting for a response before continuing takes longer. If it's time-sensitive, they can just ask what they need in the first message, and then move on if I don't reply within a decent enough timeframe. "Maybe they don't want to disclose something immediately without setting context, finding something out first, whatever." Context? "Hello" is not context for anything other than the existence of the person, which I hope I'm capable of inferring on my own. Similarly. what could they possibly find out from "hello"?
randomdata 5y ago
> It is just part of a human-centric session initiation protocol. It is the session initiation protocol for face-to-face communication. If you straight approach someone off in their own la-la land with a question, chances are they won't even hear it. "Hello" attracts their attention first. Chat does not have that problem. If they are not paying attention at the time, they can read the question later. It does not disappear after it is stated. Different tools for different jobs. > Maybe the matter is time sensitive, maybe they don't want to disclose something immediately without setting context, finding something out first, whatever. Still no reason to not provide some kind of meaningful background, * "My computer won't turn on and I have a presentation in a few minutes. Can you help me with it? If I don't hear from you soon I will try Joe." * "I have a sensitive matter to discuss with you that I cannot divulge until you have read the email from Mary. Please let me know when you've had a chance to do that." * "What do you think about X? After you let me know I'll fill you in on Y."

by _jal 5y ago

saurik 5y ago

Right: I think everyone gets that; but it is that very concept that is irksome, as the entire reason to use chat apps for many people is to NOT have presence-at-keyboard EVER. Like, the answer to "are you there?" is, an hour later, "no", followed by immediately task switching away from the window again. The "no" is honest: I wasn't there when you asked, and I also am not really there now either. It is akin to trying to obtain synchronous communication with someone by sending them a letter with "hey, you there?" and a month later getting back "yo! what's up!"... you didn't really achieve much other than "this communication mechanism worked once"; and, if you want to do that in a way that makes it clear you aren't trying to establish synchronous communication--•I am sorry, but I am new to chat: are you actually seeing this message?"--I am more OK playing along. The goal here--and I think a better way to present it than just trying to say "don't say hello" or trying to point out that someone else is being rude (which is a subjective way of analyzing things that I think people should avoid without empathy)--is in some sense to teach people what asynchronous communication means and how to achieve it, as I honestly don't want to and kind of can't have synchronous communication with anyone whom I don't really really really care about at the level of "a close personal friend or loved one" (and then if you find that rude, I guess you will have to deal with synchronously talking to someone else, at best my assistant, as I just really don't have time to synchronously talk with random people; but that's the problem: I know "hi; you there?" is a trap to try to make me feel bad for not staying synchronous once you pounce on my answer later).

_jal 5y ago
Yeah, it is tricky. Chat sits in this in-between semi-synchronous zone that different people want to treat as slightly more or slightly less synced. And that's where the disconnect happens. "Helloers" want more sync, it appears many here want less.

IceMetalPunk 5y ago

"A major reason people do it is to query presence-at-keyboard before continuing." That's what in-app statuses are for: so they don't have to wait for an answer to that, they can just look. "Maybe the matter is time sensitive." Asking whether I'm there and waiting for a response before continuing takes longer. If it's time-sensitive, they can just ask what they need in the first message, and then move on if I don't reply within a decent enough timeframe. "Maybe they don't want to disclose something immediately without setting context, finding something out first, whatever." Context? "Hello" is not context for anything other than the existence of the person, which I hope I'm capable of inferring on my own. Similarly. what could they possibly find out from "hello"?

randomdata 5y ago

> It is just part of a human-centric session initiation protocol. It is the session initiation protocol for face-to-face communication. If you straight approach someone off in their own la-la land with a question, chances are they won't even hear it. "Hello" attracts their attention first. Chat does not have that problem. If they are not paying attention at the time, they can read the question later. It does not disappear after it is stated. Different tools for different jobs. > Maybe the matter is time sensitive, maybe they don't want to disclose something immediately without setting context, finding something out first, whatever. Still no reason to not provide some kind of meaningful background, * "My computer won't turn on and I have a presentation in a few minutes. Can you help me with it? If I don't hear from you soon I will try Joe." * "I have a sensitive matter to discuss with you that I cannot divulge until you have read the email from Mary. Please let me know when you've had a chance to do that." * "What do you think about X? After you let me know I'll fill you in on Y."