5 ms·

I don’t think people do this because they want to be polite. The ‘hello’ is basically the start of what is the human equivalent of the TCP three way handshake.

by Aaargh20318 5y ago

I don’t think people do this because they want to be polite. The ‘hello’ is basically the start of what is the human equivalent of the TCP three way handshake. - Hello (SYN) > Hi (ACK) - How are you doing ? (SYN, ACK) Basically, they are trying to set up a synchronous channel over what is essentially an asynchronous medium. This is even more annoying than just slowing down the answer, they are demanding your undivided attention during the conversation.

abnercoimbre 5y ago
Paying proper attention was always core to effective human communication. Will we ever adapt to being async all the time?
- closeparen 5y ago
  There is no amount of attention that it is "proper" to pay someone who interrupts you while working. Any such attention is a favor, a gift. If you want to create a venue where attention is obligatory, schedule a meeting. Then we can also have a look at the meeting agenda relative to is duration and our total meeting load, and make reasonable tradeoffs.
Lio 5y ago
The worst thing though is when the SYN,ACK has 10 minutes of latency on it and the receiving end is blocked waiting for it. It's a bit like going up to someone in the office and saying "Hi", they reply "What's up" and then the first person just stares at you... Somehow I always fall for it when really I should just go off and make a cup of tea.
- cyberpunk 5y ago
  My favourite is just mashing keys for a few minutes, then deleting it all and writing 'hey' or just turning my phone off ;) It's a good way to encourage patience with your audience...
fouronnes3 5y ago
You know you are on HN when hello/hi is explained in terms of SYN/ACK and not the other way around... Jokes aside this is actually called a "phatic expression" in linguistics: > In linguistics, a phatic expression is communication which serves to establish or maintain social relationships rather than to impart information. Phatic expressions are a socio-pragmatic function and are used in everyday conversational exchange typically expressed in situational instances that call for social cues [1] [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phatic_expression https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phatic_expression
commandlinefan 5y ago
> I don’t think people do this because they want to be polite Actually, yes, we really are (were). I don't have a problem with it, but the people who do have a problem with it seem to have a problem with it with the intense burning passion of a thousand suns so I've stopped doing it, but don't attribute malice to people who were just trying to follow social conventions.
- shikoba 5y ago
  Hi :) Thank you for that laugh. That's so true.
- chousuke 5y ago
  I wonder why people think it's polite, because I consider is the exact opposite of polite to distract someone with something that may not lead anywhere. It might be just my ADHD talking, but getting interrupted by a "Hi" can be seriously disruptive because my brain wants to respond to it, but I then have to wait for the other person, and they might not respond immediately, and by then I've already lost focus on whatever I was doing which is immensely frustrating. If instead I'm prompted with a "Hi, can you chat about X?" I can immediately respond in a way that satisfies my brain without losing focus on my ongoing activity.
- n42 5y ago
  I don’t mean this hostilely; social conventions are typically based on etiquettes, so in trying to follow the conventions of an existing medium of communication you are failing at basic etiquette of a new one. it’s all about being considerate of the other person, which is why they feel “passion of a thousand suns” — at a fundamental level they feel disrespected
Dangeranger 5y ago
I worked at a company that would send these sort of messages over Slack, including a priority, and expect some kind of ACK back within a certain amount of time. It was the worst thing for productivity that I've experienced in a working environment, everyone hated it except for the CEO and CTO who implemented it. Receiving the SYN message already distracted the programmer who received it. If the sender had included the entire question or opening message all at once, then the receiver could decide if it was worth their time to answer at that moment. Instead the receiver of the message needed to break away from their thought process and devote time to determining the scope of the question. Do not recommend.
- xt00 5y ago
  Yea -- imagine if you attempted to send the CEO / CTO a message with the same expectations.. I imagine things would not go well for you after that.. :-) The classic rules for thee but not for me.
notyourwork 5y ago
I look at IM as closer to oral conversation than email. If you want async communication, email. If you want async communication from someone who wants synchronous communication disable notifications and reply later. I don't see why people have to expect all people to communicate in the same cold, unfriendly way.
zajio1am 5y ago
> Basically, they are trying to set up a synchronous channel over what is essentially an asynchronous medium. Yes, it is just a workaround for missing features of explicit seession begin/end that are in other mediums. > This is even more annoying than just slowing down the answer, they are demanding your undivided attention during the conversation. Why is that annoying? IMHO it is a sensible trade - i offer my undivided attention and expect an undivided attention from the other side. As long as such conversation is beneficial to both sides then it is advantageous to giving it full attention instead of continuously task-switching on-and-off with each reply.
- Aaargh20318 5y ago
  It’s annoying because IM is not supposed to be synchronous. Treat it like e-mail. Send a message, and you’ll get a reply at some point, you don’t sit around in your mail app waiting for a reply.
svet_0 5y ago
You should introduce them to RFC 7413.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]

abnercoimbre 5y ago

Paying proper attention was always core to effective human communication. Will we ever adapt to being async all the time?

closeparen 5y ago
There is no amount of attention that it is "proper" to pay someone who interrupts you while working. Any such attention is a favor, a gift. If you want to create a venue where attention is obligatory, schedule a meeting. Then we can also have a look at the meeting agenda relative to is duration and our total meeting load, and make reasonable tradeoffs.

Lio 5y ago

The worst thing though is when the SYN,ACK has 10 minutes of latency on it and the receiving end is blocked waiting for it. It's a bit like going up to someone in the office and saying "Hi", they reply "What's up" and then the first person just stares at you... Somehow I always fall for it when really I should just go off and make a cup of tea.

cyberpunk 5y ago
My favourite is just mashing keys for a few minutes, then deleting it all and writing 'hey' or just turning my phone off ;) It's a good way to encourage patience with your audience...

fouronnes3 5y ago

You know you are on HN when hello/hi is explained in terms of SYN/ACK and not the other way around... Jokes aside this is actually called a "phatic expression" in linguistics: > In linguistics, a phatic expression is communication which serves to establish or maintain social relationships rather than to impart information. Phatic expressions are a socio-pragmatic function and are used in everyday conversational exchange typically expressed in situational instances that call for social cues [1] [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phatic_expression https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phatic_expression

commandlinefan 5y ago

> I don’t think people do this because they want to be polite Actually, yes, we really are (were). I don't have a problem with it, but the people who do have a problem with it seem to have a problem with it with the intense burning passion of a thousand suns so I've stopped doing it, but don't attribute malice to people who were just trying to follow social conventions.

shikoba 5y ago
Hi :) Thank you for that laugh. That's so true.
chousuke 5y ago
I wonder why people think it's polite, because I consider is the exact opposite of polite to distract someone with something that may not lead anywhere. It might be just my ADHD talking, but getting interrupted by a "Hi" can be seriously disruptive because my brain wants to respond to it, but I then have to wait for the other person, and they might not respond immediately, and by then I've already lost focus on whatever I was doing which is immensely frustrating. If instead I'm prompted with a "Hi, can you chat about X?" I can immediately respond in a way that satisfies my brain without losing focus on my ongoing activity.
n42 5y ago
I don’t mean this hostilely; social conventions are typically based on etiquettes, so in trying to follow the conventions of an existing medium of communication you are failing at basic etiquette of a new one. it’s all about being considerate of the other person, which is why they feel “passion of a thousand suns” — at a fundamental level they feel disrespected

Dangeranger 5y ago

I worked at a company that would send these sort of messages over Slack, including a priority, and expect some kind of ACK back within a certain amount of time. It was the worst thing for productivity that I've experienced in a working environment, everyone hated it except for the CEO and CTO who implemented it. Receiving the SYN message already distracted the programmer who received it. If the sender had included the entire question or opening message all at once, then the receiver could decide if it was worth their time to answer at that moment. Instead the receiver of the message needed to break away from their thought process and devote time to determining the scope of the question. Do not recommend.

xt00 5y ago
Yea -- imagine if you attempted to send the CEO / CTO a message with the same expectations.. I imagine things would not go well for you after that.. :-) The classic rules for thee but not for me.

notyourwork 5y ago

I look at IM as closer to oral conversation than email. If you want async communication, email. If you want async communication from someone who wants synchronous communication disable notifications and reply later. I don't see why people have to expect all people to communicate in the same cold, unfriendly way.

zajio1am 5y ago

> Basically, they are trying to set up a synchronous channel over what is essentially an asynchronous medium. Yes, it is just a workaround for missing features of explicit seession begin/end that are in other mediums. > This is even more annoying than just slowing down the answer, they are demanding your undivided attention during the conversation. Why is that annoying? IMHO it is a sensible trade - i offer my undivided attention and expect an undivided attention from the other side. As long as such conversation is beneficial to both sides then it is advantageous to giving it full attention instead of continuously task-switching on-and-off with each reply.

Aaargh20318 5y ago
It’s annoying because IM is not supposed to be synchronous. Treat it like e-mail. Send a message, and you’ll get a reply at some point, you don’t sit around in your mail app waiting for a reply.

svet_0 5y ago

You should introduce them to RFC 7413.

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]