9 ms·

Look I always encourage people to read the Israeli constitution. Jewish state. Fact. Not multicultural, not secular. Jewish. That was the founders design.

belter 5y ago
Where does that leave non observant Jews?
- jl6 5y ago
  Presumably not a problem as Jewish is an ethnicity as well as a religion.
  - belter 5y ago
    So if a non observant Jew wants to operate a shop on the Shabbat...then?
    - eli_gottlieb 5y ago
      Then their shop isn't certified as kosher and can't make food for religious customers, but otherwise, it works fine. I've gone to convenience stores, cafes, restaurants, movie theaters, etc dozens of times on Shabbat, in Israel.
      - pthread_t 5y ago
        Were you able to take the trains? Buses?
        eli_gottlieb 5y ago
        Yes, of course. I lived in Haifa, which kept its bus rapid-transit system and several bus lines running all through Shabbat. This was especially helpful for the nighttime bus lines, so I could go to the beach on Friday afternoon, eat dinner and see a movie at Lev haMifratz with friends in the evening, and then get home at maybe 1-2am, all with public transit.
    - petra 5y ago
      It depends on the city/area. In some places it's allowed, in others it is not.
seo-speedwagon 5y ago
What’s your point?
- selfportrait 5y ago
  “The Zionist Jews who founded Israel had three basic objectives in mind when they thought about the kind of state they wanted to build, Israeli political scientist Areyh Naor liked to tell me: They wanted to create a Jewish state, a democratic state, and a state that would be located in the historical homeland of the Jewish people—the land of Israel—which technically included all of Palestine from the Mediterranean Sea to the Jordan River, and even some areas beyond, in what is today Jordan.” “Ben-Gurion essentially said in effect to his nation: ‘In this world we can only have two out of three of our objectives. We are being offered a chance for a Jewish state and a democratic state, but in only part of the land of Israel. We could hold out for all the land of Israel, but if we did that we might lose everything. If we have to compromise on our objectives, let it be on obtaining all the land of Israel. We will settle now for half a loaf, and dream about the rest later.’” “Then came June 1967. Israel, in the course of the Six-Day War, occupied the West Bank and Gaza Strip, extending, in the process, Jewish control over virtually all the historical land of Israel originally sought by Zionism. From that moment on, Israelis again faced the monumental question: What kind of nation do we want to be? Once again, it could only have two out of three of its objectives. One choice was to keep all the land of Israel, including the West Bank and Gaza Strip, and to remain a Jewish state, but this could be done only by curtailing Israeli democracy. The only way Israel could permanently control the Palestinian inhabitants of the West Bank and Gaza Strip would be by physically suppressing them and ensuring that they were never given political rights.” From Beirut to Jerusalem, Thomas L. Friedman
bsder 5y ago
"Founders" have no magic monopoly on being right or wrong. And the population may or may not now disagree with what the "Founders" intended. Times change. People evolve. Hopefully for the better. Too often for the worse.
xdennis 5y ago
Nothing unusual about that. Many states have official religions (like the UK). And pretty much all of Israel's neighbors in the Middle East have official religions.
hereforphone 5y ago
I'm guessing you're fine with the several de facto Arab Islamic states out there.
- selfportrait 5y ago
  No, they are awful. Does this exempt Israeli’s own actions?
  - hereforphone 5y ago
    Whether or not Israel's actions need excused ("exempt") is a matter of opinion. And an unbiased opinion can't be developed when we're only willing to criticize, or even look at, one facet of the issue. Or to put it another way, similar and "worse" things are happening elsewhere, but it's not PC to bring them up.
nsotelo 5y ago
This doesn't make it immune from criticism. What if the United States added "Caucasian state" to the constitution and started discriminating against other ethnicities. Would that be okay for you?
- onedognight 5y ago
  A better example would be adding a non-Jew requirement to the US constitution. I find it interesting that a people who faced such deadly consequences from discrimination based on Jewishness choose to discriminate based on Jewishness as their response.
  - gpt5 5y ago
    To be fair, this is exactly why they are doing it. This is coming out of the belief that the Jewish people need a Jewish refuge state based on the constant past consequences of not having one. If they didn’t control for their population, they’d need to decide between not being a Jewish state and not being democratic.
    - dragonwriter 5y ago
      > This is coming out of the belief that the Jewish people need a Jewish refuge state based on the constant past consequences of not having one. It's funny how the experience of being subjected to a racist, human -rights-disregarding ethnonationalist regime that engaged aggression based on a desire for historic ethnic territory and a desire for buffer space has provoked the creation of a racist, human-rights-disregarding, ethnonationalist regime that engages in aggression based on a desire for historic ethnic territory and buffer space. Well, not “funny” as much as “tragically ironic”.
      - gpt5 5y ago
        I don’t think that comparing Israel to Nazi germany is funny nor is it remotely accurate.
      - refurb 5y ago
maxcan 5y ago
Pretty tough to read the Israeli constitution when no such document exists. https://knesset.gov.il/constitution/ConstIntro_eng.htm https://knesset.gov.il/constitution/ConstIntro_eng.htm Perhaps you mean the Declaration of Independence? https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Declaration_of_Independence_(Israel) https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Declaration_of_Independence_(...
pydry 5y ago
https://www.middleeasteye.net/opinion/isaac-herzogs-remarks-racial-purity-reprehensible-any-language https://www.middleeasteye.net/opinion/isaac-herzogs-remarks-... The President considers race mixing a "tragedy". It's a law to try and maintain racial purity.
gatlin 5y ago
Who were the founders, again? Why do Palestinians have to care what those founders think of anything?

belter 5y ago

Where does that leave non observant Jews?

jl6 5y ago
Presumably not a problem as Jewish is an ethnicity as well as a religion.
- belter 5y ago
  So if a non observant Jew wants to operate a shop on the Shabbat...then?
  - eli_gottlieb 5y ago
    Then their shop isn't certified as kosher and can't make food for religious customers, but otherwise, it works fine. I've gone to convenience stores, cafes, restaurants, movie theaters, etc dozens of times on Shabbat, in Israel.
    - pthread_t 5y ago
      Were you able to take the trains? Buses?
      - eli_gottlieb 5y ago
        Yes, of course. I lived in Haifa, which kept its bus rapid-transit system and several bus lines running all through Shabbat. This was especially helpful for the nighttime bus lines, so I could go to the beach on Friday afternoon, eat dinner and see a movie at Lev haMifratz with friends in the evening, and then get home at maybe 1-2am, all with public transit.
  - petra 5y ago
    It depends on the city/area. In some places it's allowed, in others it is not.

seo-speedwagon 5y ago

What’s your point?

selfportrait 5y ago
“The Zionist Jews who founded Israel had three basic objectives in mind when they thought about the kind of state they wanted to build, Israeli political scientist Areyh Naor liked to tell me: They wanted to create a Jewish state, a democratic state, and a state that would be located in the historical homeland of the Jewish people—the land of Israel—which technically included all of Palestine from the Mediterranean Sea to the Jordan River, and even some areas beyond, in what is today Jordan.” “Ben-Gurion essentially said in effect to his nation: ‘In this world we can only have two out of three of our objectives. We are being offered a chance for a Jewish state and a democratic state, but in only part of the land of Israel. We could hold out for all the land of Israel, but if we did that we might lose everything. If we have to compromise on our objectives, let it be on obtaining all the land of Israel. We will settle now for half a loaf, and dream about the rest later.’” “Then came June 1967. Israel, in the course of the Six-Day War, occupied the West Bank and Gaza Strip, extending, in the process, Jewish control over virtually all the historical land of Israel originally sought by Zionism. From that moment on, Israelis again faced the monumental question: What kind of nation do we want to be? Once again, it could only have two out of three of its objectives. One choice was to keep all the land of Israel, including the West Bank and Gaza Strip, and to remain a Jewish state, but this could be done only by curtailing Israeli democracy. The only way Israel could permanently control the Palestinian inhabitants of the West Bank and Gaza Strip would be by physically suppressing them and ensuring that they were never given political rights.” From Beirut to Jerusalem, Thomas L. Friedman

bsder 5y ago

"Founders" have no magic monopoly on being right or wrong. And the population may or may not now disagree with what the "Founders" intended. Times change. People evolve. Hopefully for the better. Too often for the worse.

xdennis 5y ago

Nothing unusual about that. Many states have official religions (like the UK). And pretty much all of Israel's neighbors in the Middle East have official religions.

hereforphone 5y ago

I'm guessing you're fine with the several de facto Arab Islamic states out there.

selfportrait 5y ago
No, they are awful. Does this exempt Israeli’s own actions?
- hereforphone 5y ago
  Whether or not Israel's actions need excused ("exempt") is a matter of opinion. And an unbiased opinion can't be developed when we're only willing to criticize, or even look at, one facet of the issue. Or to put it another way, similar and "worse" things are happening elsewhere, but it's not PC to bring them up.

nsotelo 5y ago

This doesn't make it immune from criticism. What if the United States added "Caucasian state" to the constitution and started discriminating against other ethnicities. Would that be okay for you?

onedognight 5y ago
A better example would be adding a non-Jew requirement to the US constitution. I find it interesting that a people who faced such deadly consequences from discrimination based on Jewishness choose to discriminate based on Jewishness as their response.
- gpt5 5y ago
  To be fair, this is exactly why they are doing it. This is coming out of the belief that the Jewish people need a Jewish refuge state based on the constant past consequences of not having one. If they didn’t control for their population, they’d need to decide between not being a Jewish state and not being democratic.
  - dragonwriter 5y ago
    > This is coming out of the belief that the Jewish people need a Jewish refuge state based on the constant past consequences of not having one. It's funny how the experience of being subjected to a racist, human -rights-disregarding ethnonationalist regime that engaged aggression based on a desire for historic ethnic territory and a desire for buffer space has provoked the creation of a racist, human-rights-disregarding, ethnonationalist regime that engages in aggression based on a desire for historic ethnic territory and buffer space. Well, not “funny” as much as “tragically ironic”.
    - gpt5 5y ago
      I don’t think that comparing Israel to Nazi germany is funny nor is it remotely accurate.
    - refurb 5y ago

maxcan 5y ago

Pretty tough to read the Israeli constitution when no such document exists. https://knesset.gov.il/constitution/ConstIntro_eng.htm https://knesset.gov.il/constitution/ConstIntro_eng.htm Perhaps you mean the Declaration of Independence? https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Declaration_of_Independence_(Israel) https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Declaration_of_Independence_(...

pydry 5y ago

https://www.middleeasteye.net/opinion/isaac-herzogs-remarks-racial-purity-reprehensible-any-language https://www.middleeasteye.net/opinion/isaac-herzogs-remarks-... The President considers race mixing a "tragedy". It's a law to try and maintain racial purity.

gatlin 5y ago

Who were the founders, again? Why do Palestinians have to care what those founders think of anything?