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Sure, but these are the arguments used to justify a Western nation not being able to exist in the Middle East because of having too inclusive values. What I'm

Sure, but these are the arguments used to justify a Western nation not being able to exist in the Middle East because of having too inclusive values. What I'm looking for is an argument of why the two probabilities that I mentioned are small enough so that persecution is not a concern. If persecution is a concern, why should Israel care about being inconsistent? Being inconsistent in how Israel displays itself would then be at the back of the line of their concerns.

wbsss4412 5y ago
Israel seems to care quite a bit about its image in the west, which is why every time news such as this comes out you see the same arguments trotted out over and over about how this is what’s necessary. Is western oriented propaganda and it’s important that it is seen for what it is. Now, as to your point about persecution. I do care about the safety and well-being of all involved in this. But your argument boils down to one of two things: either there is something inherent in middle eastern culture writ large that makes people utterly incapable of living peacefully together, or the Israelis have mistreated the Palestinians so much that they have opened themselves up to terrifying revenge. Now for the latter case, that is simply no excuse for continuing said behavior. And as to the former, it simply is not true. The Middle East has been a melting pot for centuries and it hasn’t been remarkably more violent than other regions of the world is one takes a longer historical view (not to mention the significant conflict over oil resources with the west)
- walkhour 5y ago
  > there is something inherent in middle eastern culture writ large that makes people utterly incapable of living peacefully together By any means this is the case, but in the current state of affairs, given the amount of hatred in the region, if Israel was a region of Palestine with no sovereignty, I don't think it would fare well for the Jews. How do I know this? This is publicly routinely announced by the Palestinian government, who, granted, are not the Palestinians, but you just need a minority for a persecution to happen. Of course peace and living along together is eventually possible.
  - wbsss4412 5y ago
    There is no unified Palestinian government. I’m going to assume you are referring to hamas, who hasn’t faced election since the mid 2000s in Gaza (though to be fair they would probably win again today). I’m not asserting there is any clean path forward, but at the same time the hypothetical you are offering wouldn’t happen overnight either. The question is whether we are able to justify actions as they are now. Will Israel work towards reconciliation and restitution or will it continue with its current policy of colonialism and expulsion?
    - walkhour 5y ago
      > There is no unified Palestinian government. I’m going to assume you are referring to hamas, who hasn’t faced election since the mid 2000s in Gaza (though to be fair they would probably win again today). I'm referring to whoever de facto is the ultimate authority in the region, there may be several individuals/groups that have the authority. > I’m not asserting there is any clean path forward, but at the same time the hypothetical you are offering wouldn’t happen overnight either. Agreed. > The question is whether we are able to justify actions as they are now Agreed.
- eli_gottlieb 5y ago
  >The Middle East has been a melting pot for centuries No it hasn't. It's been an explicitly Islamist supremacist (sometimes under Arab dynasties, sometimes Persian or Turkish ones, but certainly never Jewish ones) imperial dominion for centuries, and was until 1924. Do you not know what dhimmi status was?
  - wbsss4412 5y ago
    I’m not sure why you’re using Dhimmi as if it’s a trump card in this argument. It explicitly granted legal protections for non Muslims. Compared to its contemporaries under Christian rule in Europe, the Muslim world was quite progressive in that respect. You can observe the difference as it played out in Christian Spain after the reconquista.
    - eli_gottlieb 5y ago
      Ok, so would you get in the time machine to go back and become a dhimmi? Why should we have liked on purely comparative grounds?
      - wbsss4412 5y ago
        Because that’s the context of the conversation?

wbsss4412 5y ago

Israel seems to care quite a bit about its image in the west, which is why every time news such as this comes out you see the same arguments trotted out over and over about how this is what’s necessary. Is western oriented propaganda and it’s important that it is seen for what it is. Now, as to your point about persecution. I do care about the safety and well-being of all involved in this. But your argument boils down to one of two things: either there is something inherent in middle eastern culture writ large that makes people utterly incapable of living peacefully together, or the Israelis have mistreated the Palestinians so much that they have opened themselves up to terrifying revenge. Now for the latter case, that is simply no excuse for continuing said behavior. And as to the former, it simply is not true. The Middle East has been a melting pot for centuries and it hasn’t been remarkably more violent than other regions of the world is one takes a longer historical view (not to mention the significant conflict over oil resources with the west)

walkhour 5y ago
> there is something inherent in middle eastern culture writ large that makes people utterly incapable of living peacefully together By any means this is the case, but in the current state of affairs, given the amount of hatred in the region, if Israel was a region of Palestine with no sovereignty, I don't think it would fare well for the Jews. How do I know this? This is publicly routinely announced by the Palestinian government, who, granted, are not the Palestinians, but you just need a minority for a persecution to happen. Of course peace and living along together is eventually possible.
- wbsss4412 5y ago
  There is no unified Palestinian government. I’m going to assume you are referring to hamas, who hasn’t faced election since the mid 2000s in Gaza (though to be fair they would probably win again today). I’m not asserting there is any clean path forward, but at the same time the hypothetical you are offering wouldn’t happen overnight either. The question is whether we are able to justify actions as they are now. Will Israel work towards reconciliation and restitution or will it continue with its current policy of colonialism and expulsion?
  - walkhour 5y ago
    > There is no unified Palestinian government. I’m going to assume you are referring to hamas, who hasn’t faced election since the mid 2000s in Gaza (though to be fair they would probably win again today). I'm referring to whoever de facto is the ultimate authority in the region, there may be several individuals/groups that have the authority. > I’m not asserting there is any clean path forward, but at the same time the hypothetical you are offering wouldn’t happen overnight either. Agreed. > The question is whether we are able to justify actions as they are now Agreed.
eli_gottlieb 5y ago
>The Middle East has been a melting pot for centuries No it hasn't. It's been an explicitly Islamist supremacist (sometimes under Arab dynasties, sometimes Persian or Turkish ones, but certainly never Jewish ones) imperial dominion for centuries, and was until 1924. Do you not know what dhimmi status was?
- wbsss4412 5y ago
  I’m not sure why you’re using Dhimmi as if it’s a trump card in this argument. It explicitly granted legal protections for non Muslims. Compared to its contemporaries under Christian rule in Europe, the Muslim world was quite progressive in that respect. You can observe the difference as it played out in Christian Spain after the reconquista.
  - eli_gottlieb 5y ago
    Ok, so would you get in the time machine to go back and become a dhimmi? Why should we have liked on purely comparative grounds?
    - wbsss4412 5y ago
      Because that’s the context of the conversation?