3 ms·

>> Proponents say the law helps ensure Israel's security and maintains its "Jewish character". > What the fuck? Israel was founded as a state for the Jewish p

>> Proponents say the law helps ensure Israel's security and maintains its "Jewish character". > What the fuck? Israel was founded as a state for the Jewish people, so they could have some political self-determination, which given their history, doesn't seem like a such bad thing. It would entirely subvert that if it became a state controlled by other kinds of people, like all other states in the world. Let's say Muslim Arabs become the majority in Israel, wouldn't it then become the kind of place that the ancestors of the Jewish Israelis fled from (for good reason)? There are also literally dozens of other Muslim Arab states, so the transmogrification of Israel into another would be a net-negative for diversity. IMHO the comparisons of Israel to apartheid break down because the motivations are different. IIRC, the South African whites wanted to maintain dominance over a big subject population, the Jewish Israelis just want a state for themselves.

throw0101a 5y ago
> Let's say Muslim Arabs become the majority in Israel, wouldn't it then become the kind of place that the ancestors of the Jewish Israelis fled from (for good reason)? The Jews didn't exactly jump from Judea as opposed to getting pushed: * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bar_Kokhba_revolt https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bar_Kokhba_revolt * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish–Roman_wars https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish–Roman_wars * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Syria_Palaestina https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Syria_Palaestina Certainly there was a diaspora before that, but the (Second) Temple was still a large focus, but that ended as well: * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_Jerusalem_(70_CE) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_Jerusalem_(70_CE) Certainly there were always Jews (and Christians, and later Muslims) in that geographic area, but to say that Jews particularly 'deserve' exclusive governing of that area may be stretching it given the two thousand years of history since they last had 'exclusivity' to it. > IMHO the comparisons of Israel to apartheid break down because the motivations are different. IIRC, the South African whites wanted to maintain dominance over a big subject population, the Jewish Israelis just want a state for themselves. A reasonable desire. The Poles also wanted a state for themselves for a while, and finally got one (after a messy twentieth century), but would it be okay for them to say "no blacks or Arabs" in their naturalization/citizenship laws? (Versus the perhaps 'simpler' idea of "must be fluent in Polish and be familiar with Polish culture/history".) Palestinians also want a state of their own, but Israel is (according to some) squatting on their land: * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_settlement https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_settlement * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_of_Palestine https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_of_Palestine Don't both have a right (?) to exist? Why does Israel deny to others what it wants for itself?
- tablespoon 5y ago
  >> Let's say Muslim Arabs become the majority in Israel, wouldn't it then become the kind of place that the ancestors of the Jewish Israelis fled from (for good reason)? > The Jews didn't exactly jump from Judea as opposed to getting pushed: That's not what I had in mind. I was thinking of more recent history, like this: https://www.nytimes.com/2021/10/03/opinion/last-jew-afghanistan-zebulon-simentov.html https://www.nytimes.com/2021/10/03/opinion/last-jew-afghanis... > Dozens of countries around the world have had their Last Jews. The Libyan city of Tripoli was, astonishingly, one-quarter Jewish in 1941; today the entire country is Jew-free. After the fall of Muammar el-Qaddafi, who banished the country’s lingering Jews during his reign, a lone Libyan Jew came back to Tripoli and took down a concrete wall sealing the city’s one remaining synagogue. But he was soon forced to flee, having been warned that an antisemitic mob was coming for his head. ---- > Certainly there were always Jews (and Christians, and later Muslims) in that geographic area, but to say that Jews particularly 'deserve' exclusive governing of that area may be stretching it given the two thousand years of history since they last had 'exclusivity' to it. I don't think it's a stretch. There's more to it than just historical tenancy. > Palestinians also want a state of their own, but Israel is (according to some) squatting on their land: Sure, but it would be yet another Middle Eastern Arab Muslim state. Why erase something unique for that? > Palestinians also want a state of their own, but Israel is (according to some) squatting on their land: > Don't both have a right (?) to exist? Why does Israel deny to others what it wants for itself? Unfortunately, the world doesn't divide into nice neat categories that don't conflict.

throw0101a 5y ago

> Let's say Muslim Arabs become the majority in Israel, wouldn't it then become the kind of place that the ancestors of the Jewish Israelis fled from (for good reason)? The Jews didn't exactly jump from Judea as opposed to getting pushed: * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bar_Kokhba_revolt https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bar_Kokhba_revolt * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish–Roman_wars https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish–Roman_wars * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Syria_Palaestina https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Syria_Palaestina Certainly there was a diaspora before that, but the (Second) Temple was still a large focus, but that ended as well: * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_Jerusalem_(70_CE) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_Jerusalem_(70_CE) Certainly there were always Jews (and Christians, and later Muslims) in that geographic area, but to say that Jews particularly 'deserve' exclusive governing of that area may be stretching it given the two thousand years of history since they last had 'exclusivity' to it. > IMHO the comparisons of Israel to apartheid break down because the motivations are different. IIRC, the South African whites wanted to maintain dominance over a big subject population, the Jewish Israelis just want a state for themselves. A reasonable desire. The Poles also wanted a state for themselves for a while, and finally got one (after a messy twentieth century), but would it be okay for them to say "no blacks or Arabs" in their naturalization/citizenship laws? (Versus the perhaps 'simpler' idea of "must be fluent in Polish and be familiar with Polish culture/history".) Palestinians also want a state of their own, but Israel is (according to some) squatting on their land: * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_settlement https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_settlement * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_of_Palestine https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_of_Palestine Don't both have a right (?) to exist? Why does Israel deny to others what it wants for itself?

tablespoon 5y ago
>> Let's say Muslim Arabs become the majority in Israel, wouldn't it then become the kind of place that the ancestors of the Jewish Israelis fled from (for good reason)? > The Jews didn't exactly jump from Judea as opposed to getting pushed: That's not what I had in mind. I was thinking of more recent history, like this: https://www.nytimes.com/2021/10/03/opinion/last-jew-afghanistan-zebulon-simentov.html https://www.nytimes.com/2021/10/03/opinion/last-jew-afghanis... > Dozens of countries around the world have had their Last Jews. The Libyan city of Tripoli was, astonishingly, one-quarter Jewish in 1941; today the entire country is Jew-free. After the fall of Muammar el-Qaddafi, who banished the country’s lingering Jews during his reign, a lone Libyan Jew came back to Tripoli and took down a concrete wall sealing the city’s one remaining synagogue. But he was soon forced to flee, having been warned that an antisemitic mob was coming for his head. ---- > Certainly there were always Jews (and Christians, and later Muslims) in that geographic area, but to say that Jews particularly 'deserve' exclusive governing of that area may be stretching it given the two thousand years of history since they last had 'exclusivity' to it. I don't think it's a stretch. There's more to it than just historical tenancy. > Palestinians also want a state of their own, but Israel is (according to some) squatting on their land: Sure, but it would be yet another Middle Eastern Arab Muslim state. Why erase something unique for that? > Palestinians also want a state of their own, but Israel is (according to some) squatting on their land: > Don't both have a right (?) to exist? Why does Israel deny to others what it wants for itself? Unfortunately, the world doesn't divide into nice neat categories that don't conflict.