3 ms·

America is still a deeply segregated society. And the segregation is built in such a way that it tends to keep people where they always where.

SoftwareMaven 15y ago
The segregation is not all systemic. I remember reading an article discussing research discussing how neighborhoods change as a result of very slight preferences of "I'd rather be by somebody of my race than a different race." This applied to black and white neighborhoods. Taken over time and populations, these very slight differences in preference (and, realistically, in the USA, it is unlikely to be "slight") lead to segregated neighborhoods. If anybody has the original, I'd love to see it again and find out what I've mis-remembered. I couldn't find it.
- burgerbrain 15y ago
  I compare it to boxing matches. If I'm watching a match between someone who is identified as German, and someone who is identified as Italian, without other influences, I am going to tend towards cheering for the Italian, because I identify more with Italians. Never mind the fact that I'm 3/4th German and only 1/4th Italian, and certainly don't have anything against Germans. It's purely a unconscious tribal reflex, rarely even noticed unless given a chance to magnify (time and numbers provides this magnifying factor in communities.)
  - geekfactor 15y ago
    PG argued pretty effectively against this kind of "tribal reflex" in Keep Your Identity Small: http://www.paulgraham.com/identity.html http://www.paulgraham.com/identity.html
    - burgerbrain 15y ago
      As I read it, he may be arguing against this sort of "tribal reflex", but he's certainly not arguing against it's existence. My point is that I am agreeing with the parent of my original post, segregation can arise from phenomenon not necessarily codified into law or even recognized consciously by the participants. Whether this "tribal reflex" is "right or wrong" is irrelevant, the important and seemingly undisputed point is that it exists.
- akkartik 15y ago
  I know the article you mean but couldn't find it. But the Schelling Segregation Model seems to fit the bill: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Schelling#Models_of_Segregation http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Schelling#Models_of_Segr...
LoveLinux 15y ago
Is there something wrong with groups of people wanting to self segregate?
- deleted 15y ago
  [deleted]
- andrewljohnson 15y ago
  If by "wrong" you mean "leads to worse outcomes" - then very possibly yes.
  - deleted 15y ago
    [deleted]
  - burgerbrain 15y ago
    How do we define "segregate"? Is it just across 'skin color' / 'irrelevant heritage' lines? What if I identify with and want to live around entrepreneurs? atheists? 'survivalists'? Homosexuals? I think I can make a fairly strong argument for homosexuals preferring to live among themselves as being ultimately detrimental to society (reduced exposure to homosexuals allows intolerance and misunderstanding to fester), however I would never dream of calling the desire to isolate themselves from hatred "wrong". Edit: I take it from the downvotes that we're just talking about segregation across "'skin color' / 'irrelevant heritage'" lines for some reason...
    - andrewljohnson 15y ago
      I'm not arguing preference here. All of your examples still apply. And I would simply say that right and wrong are poor constructs to let us formulate ideas about how we should live. There's a good chance that atheists who choose to live only among atheists are going to suffer worse outcomes. Living in a diverse society leads to more perspective and better ideas, and an eventually better society. Only living with other gay people or other Hacidic Jews or other white supremacists may feel comfortable, and it might lead to a functioning society. But is it ideal? Does it leave the people better off? Society at large? I don't actually know the answer tho these questions, but I suspect you're better off meeting all sorts of people, living in all sorts of places, and absorbing all sorts of ideas. I don't really believe in right and wrong.

SoftwareMaven 15y ago

The segregation is not all systemic. I remember reading an article discussing research discussing how neighborhoods change as a result of very slight preferences of "I'd rather be by somebody of my race than a different race." This applied to black and white neighborhoods. Taken over time and populations, these very slight differences in preference (and, realistically, in the USA, it is unlikely to be "slight") lead to segregated neighborhoods. If anybody has the original, I'd love to see it again and find out what I've mis-remembered. I couldn't find it.

burgerbrain 15y ago
I compare it to boxing matches. If I'm watching a match between someone who is identified as German, and someone who is identified as Italian, without other influences, I am going to tend towards cheering for the Italian, because I identify more with Italians. Never mind the fact that I'm 3/4th German and only 1/4th Italian, and certainly don't have anything against Germans. It's purely a unconscious tribal reflex, rarely even noticed unless given a chance to magnify (time and numbers provides this magnifying factor in communities.)
- geekfactor 15y ago
  PG argued pretty effectively against this kind of "tribal reflex" in Keep Your Identity Small: http://www.paulgraham.com/identity.html http://www.paulgraham.com/identity.html
  - burgerbrain 15y ago
    As I read it, he may be arguing against this sort of "tribal reflex", but he's certainly not arguing against it's existence. My point is that I am agreeing with the parent of my original post, segregation can arise from phenomenon not necessarily codified into law or even recognized consciously by the participants. Whether this "tribal reflex" is "right or wrong" is irrelevant, the important and seemingly undisputed point is that it exists.
akkartik 15y ago
I know the article you mean but couldn't find it. But the Schelling Segregation Model seems to fit the bill: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Schelling#Models_of_Segregation http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Schelling#Models_of_Segr...

LoveLinux 15y ago

Is there something wrong with groups of people wanting to self segregate?

deleted 15y ago
[deleted]
andrewljohnson 15y ago
If by "wrong" you mean "leads to worse outcomes" - then very possibly yes.
- deleted 15y ago
  [deleted]
- burgerbrain 15y ago
  How do we define "segregate"? Is it just across 'skin color' / 'irrelevant heritage' lines? What if I identify with and want to live around entrepreneurs? atheists? 'survivalists'? Homosexuals? I think I can make a fairly strong argument for homosexuals preferring to live among themselves as being ultimately detrimental to society (reduced exposure to homosexuals allows intolerance and misunderstanding to fester), however I would never dream of calling the desire to isolate themselves from hatred "wrong". Edit: I take it from the downvotes that we're just talking about segregation across "'skin color' / 'irrelevant heritage'" lines for some reason...
  - andrewljohnson 15y ago
    I'm not arguing preference here. All of your examples still apply. And I would simply say that right and wrong are poor constructs to let us formulate ideas about how we should live. There's a good chance that atheists who choose to live only among atheists are going to suffer worse outcomes. Living in a diverse society leads to more perspective and better ideas, and an eventually better society. Only living with other gay people or other Hacidic Jews or other white supremacists may feel comfortable, and it might lead to a functioning society. But is it ideal? Does it leave the people better off? Society at large? I don't actually know the answer tho these questions, but I suspect you're better off meeting all sorts of people, living in all sorts of places, and absorbing all sorts of ideas. I don't really believe in right and wrong.