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UK tells operators to shut down crypto ATMs or face action

82 points by MikeAshley178 5y ago

ogogmad 5y ago
One of these is (was?) at Bond Street station in London. Took a 5% cut when you "deposited" fiat. With this and the closing down of the nearby HMV, I don't know why anyone would go to Bond Street now.
- topicseed 5y ago
  To buy jewellery, bags, and watches?
  - FDSGSG 5y ago
    Or to visit some of the excellent art galleries? Or to eat at some of the wonderful restaurants within a couple of blocks distance?
- twic 5y ago
  First the Cinnabon, now the bitcoin ATM. Truly, it is a ghost town now.
  - jleahy 5y ago
    Cinnabon is gone?!
- zhte415 5y ago
  A surprisingly large number of hedge funds are based around Bond Street.
  - traceroute66 5y ago
    And 90% of them probably in Grosvenor Square. Basically well placed for fancy places to take the next sucker out to lunch. That's what happens when you milk your clients for 2 and 20.
    - topicseed 5y ago
      Hakkasan entered the chat. And The Mayfair Hotel. And Annabel's.
- traceroute66 5y ago
  > I don't know why anyone would go to Bond Street now. At least there won't be so many Russian tarts there anymore. ;-)
  - nindalf 5y ago
    I don’t think I’ve ever seen a tart or a drug dealer in these areas but I’m assured that they exist. Time to book an eye appointment I guess.
    - traceroute66 5y ago
      For clarity, the generally accepted London definition would include trophy wives. Ladies who lunch might be the more polite term, but that generally implies well-dressed which regrettably is not the case amongst the Russian Nouveau Riche.
  - FDSGSG 5y ago
    There will be more, not less. Everyone who was previously splitting their time between London and Russia will now live full time in London. Many Russians will also be applying for visas right about now, many of them will be granted.
- nindalf 5y ago
  Uniqlo near the Bond Street station is pretty great. And the Disney store is great for gifts for youngsters. And I like the Wasabi nearby. Love the Wafflemeister too, often stopped there. Also there’s a great place inside Bond Street station that fixes watches. Found that invaluable when I needed it. Like damn, I find it hilarious that HMV and this ATM were singlehandedly holding up the Bond Street station experience for you.
z3c0 5y ago
This article got me thinking: is there anything intrinsically wrong with money-laundering? Or is it something we all decided was okay for a state to police without a clear moral basis, like prostitution? Is it only illegal because the money was gained by committing a crime? If so, wouldn't money laundering laws be an indirect solution to the problem? I'd love to hear some informed perspectives on this.
- AndrewDucker 5y ago
  The definitions are crime-based: In US law it is the practice of engaging in financial transactions to conceal the identity, source, or destination of illegally gained money. In UK law the common law definition is wider. The act is defined as "taking any action with property of any form which is either wholly or in part the proceeds of a crime that will disguise the fact that that property is the proceeds of a crime or obscure the beneficial ownership of said property".
  - opless 5y ago
    Which, from a UK PoV the whole "property owned by offshore shell companies" debacle is so thoroughly vexing. Quite a bit of UK property is owned this way. https://www.private-eye.co.uk/registry https://www.private-eye.co.uk/registry
- rwmj 5y ago
  Easy money-laundering enables other types of crimes. If it's easy to move money embezzled from the Russian state into legitimate London properties, then presumably that makes embezzling a bit easier. (It's good to question these assumptions, I agree).
  - rosndo 5y ago
    But in the case of London properties, the actual laundering happens in Russia. The money is “clean” when it arrives in the UK, with extensive documentation to demonstrate it’s provenance. Both the UK media and government like to apply the term in super creative ways. When they speak of Russian money laundering in London, it’s usually a complete fabrication. E: Throttled, so can’t reply directly to rwmj. Why would you risk bringing dirty money from Russia to the UK when Russia is so deeply corrupt that it’ll be trivial to come up with extensive documentation demonstrating legitimate sources of funds?
BaseballPhysics 5y ago
The headline for this article is... a bit coloured. Crypto, in general, is just another example of tech charging ahead while in many cases clearly violating existing laws and regulations. In this particular case, the article specifically notes that: > To operate in the UK, crypto ATMs should be registered with the FCA and comply with UK Money Laundering Regulations (MLR). According to the FCA, none of the cryptoasset firms that have registered with it have been granted permission to operate ATMs so those that are operating are illegal and, the FCA said, customers should not be using them. A more accurate headline would be: "Crypto ATM operators violate laws, forced to shut down". These ATMs are no different than the shenanigans that Uber got up to: deliberately skirting or outright violating not just the intent but letter of the law in order to "disrupt". I'm waiting to hear an announcement that these ATMs will start using geolocation techniques to shut themselves down when law enforcement is nearby...
- skyde 5y ago
  what is the definition of an aTM? Are those machines that take gift card and give you money in exchange also considered ATM. According to the government crypto is not a currency. So it’s can compared to collecting baseball card or stamps.
- csdvrx 5y ago
  > These ATMs are no different than the shenanigans that Uber got up to: deliberately skirting or outright violating not just the intent but letter of the law in order to "disrupt". Then, given Uber success in making legislation evolve, crypto ATMs will receive at worst a slap on the hand, then be fully legalized in a few years, while the existing ATMs will become a thing of the past for a new generation of customers. (I have no idea how it's in continental Europe or the UK, but that how it's here in the US)
  - barrucadu 5y ago
    Why would existing ATMs become a thing of the past? The economy isn't going to switch from cash to crypto in a few years time.
cdiddy2 5y ago
These atms are particularly useful for Ukrainians who have managed to escape with some crypto. Since it can be hard to set up a bank account and exchange account in a new country
- BaseballPhysics 5y ago
  Ukrainian banks are still part of SWIFT. They can just use the normal banking system. Maybe if you'd said "Russians" I'd understand, since their banking system is partially cut off, but in that case we'd be talking about money laundering intended to bypass international sanctions.
  - angio 5y ago
    Some Ukrainian banks (and other services) have been under constant ddos attacks from russian hackers (even before the invasion).
    - BaseballPhysics 5y ago
      SWIFT runs on a separate network that's not affected by internet-based denial of service attacks. I don't see how such a thing would prevent a Ukrainian from accessing their funds via a UK bank.
      - rosndo 5y ago
        As far as I understand SWIFT very much runs over a VPN that works on the public internet. https://www.swift.com/our-solutions/interfaces-and-integration/alliance-connect https://www.swift.com/our-solutions/interfaces-and-integrati... There’s no separate comms infrastructure for SWIFT, it’s very much vulnerable to internet-based DDoS.
        BaseballPhysics 5y ago
        Ah, yup, SWIFTnet does indeed run over the public internet (apparently that changed way back in 2005, so my information is quite dated!) TIL! The question then becomes: how is the network designed to handle DDoS attacks? For example, you'd need to identify the network segment or host IP address where the SWIFTnet connections are terminated, among many other things, and I have no idea how you'd do that and if the system builds in resiliency for things like DDoSes. Of course, the simpler answer is just to blow up the ISPs and cut power to datacenters. Regardless, if the Ukrainian banking system connection to SWIFT was indeed disrupted, you wouldn't be able to transfer funds to a crypto exchange in the first place, which rather undermines its use as a way to get funds out of the country...

82 points by MikeAshley178 5y ago

One of these is (was?) at Bond Street station in London. Took a 5% cut when you "deposited" fiat. With this and the closing down of the nearby HMV, I don't know why anyone would go to Bond Street now.

topicseed 5y ago
To buy jewellery, bags, and watches?
- FDSGSG 5y ago
  Or to visit some of the excellent art galleries? Or to eat at some of the wonderful restaurants within a couple of blocks distance?
twic 5y ago
First the Cinnabon, now the bitcoin ATM. Truly, it is a ghost town now.
- jleahy 5y ago
  Cinnabon is gone?!
zhte415 5y ago
A surprisingly large number of hedge funds are based around Bond Street.
- traceroute66 5y ago
  And 90% of them probably in Grosvenor Square. Basically well placed for fancy places to take the next sucker out to lunch. That's what happens when you milk your clients for 2 and 20.
  - topicseed 5y ago
    Hakkasan entered the chat. And The Mayfair Hotel. And Annabel's.
traceroute66 5y ago
> I don't know why anyone would go to Bond Street now. At least there won't be so many Russian tarts there anymore. ;-)
- nindalf 5y ago
  I don’t think I’ve ever seen a tart or a drug dealer in these areas but I’m assured that they exist. Time to book an eye appointment I guess.
  - traceroute66 5y ago
    For clarity, the generally accepted London definition would include trophy wives. Ladies who lunch might be the more polite term, but that generally implies well-dressed which regrettably is not the case amongst the Russian Nouveau Riche.
- FDSGSG 5y ago
  There will be more, not less. Everyone who was previously splitting their time between London and Russia will now live full time in London. Many Russians will also be applying for visas right about now, many of them will be granted.
nindalf 5y ago
Uniqlo near the Bond Street station is pretty great. And the Disney store is great for gifts for youngsters. And I like the Wasabi nearby. Love the Wafflemeister too, often stopped there. Also there’s a great place inside Bond Street station that fixes watches. Found that invaluable when I needed it. Like damn, I find it hilarious that HMV and this ATM were singlehandedly holding up the Bond Street station experience for you.

z3c0 5y ago

This article got me thinking: is there anything intrinsically wrong with money-laundering? Or is it something we all decided was okay for a state to police without a clear moral basis, like prostitution? Is it only illegal because the money was gained by committing a crime? If so, wouldn't money laundering laws be an indirect solution to the problem? I'd love to hear some informed perspectives on this.

AndrewDucker 5y ago
The definitions are crime-based: In US law it is the practice of engaging in financial transactions to conceal the identity, source, or destination of illegally gained money. In UK law the common law definition is wider. The act is defined as "taking any action with property of any form which is either wholly or in part the proceeds of a crime that will disguise the fact that that property is the proceeds of a crime or obscure the beneficial ownership of said property".
- opless 5y ago
  Which, from a UK PoV the whole "property owned by offshore shell companies" debacle is so thoroughly vexing. Quite a bit of UK property is owned this way. https://www.private-eye.co.uk/registry https://www.private-eye.co.uk/registry
rwmj 5y ago
Easy money-laundering enables other types of crimes. If it's easy to move money embezzled from the Russian state into legitimate London properties, then presumably that makes embezzling a bit easier. (It's good to question these assumptions, I agree).
- rosndo 5y ago
  But in the case of London properties, the actual laundering happens in Russia. The money is “clean” when it arrives in the UK, with extensive documentation to demonstrate it’s provenance. Both the UK media and government like to apply the term in super creative ways. When they speak of Russian money laundering in London, it’s usually a complete fabrication. E: Throttled, so can’t reply directly to rwmj. Why would you risk bringing dirty money from Russia to the UK when Russia is so deeply corrupt that it’ll be trivial to come up with extensive documentation demonstrating legitimate sources of funds?

BaseballPhysics 5y ago

The headline for this article is... a bit coloured. Crypto, in general, is just another example of tech charging ahead while in many cases clearly violating existing laws and regulations. In this particular case, the article specifically notes that: > To operate in the UK, crypto ATMs should be registered with the FCA and comply with UK Money Laundering Regulations (MLR). According to the FCA, none of the cryptoasset firms that have registered with it have been granted permission to operate ATMs so those that are operating are illegal and, the FCA said, customers should not be using them. A more accurate headline would be: "Crypto ATM operators violate laws, forced to shut down". These ATMs are no different than the shenanigans that Uber got up to: deliberately skirting or outright violating not just the intent but letter of the law in order to "disrupt". I'm waiting to hear an announcement that these ATMs will start using geolocation techniques to shut themselves down when law enforcement is nearby...

skyde 5y ago
what is the definition of an aTM? Are those machines that take gift card and give you money in exchange also considered ATM. According to the government crypto is not a currency. So it’s can compared to collecting baseball card or stamps.
csdvrx 5y ago
> These ATMs are no different than the shenanigans that Uber got up to: deliberately skirting or outright violating not just the intent but letter of the law in order to "disrupt". Then, given Uber success in making legislation evolve, crypto ATMs will receive at worst a slap on the hand, then be fully legalized in a few years, while the existing ATMs will become a thing of the past for a new generation of customers. (I have no idea how it's in continental Europe or the UK, but that how it's here in the US)
- barrucadu 5y ago
  Why would existing ATMs become a thing of the past? The economy isn't going to switch from cash to crypto in a few years time.

cdiddy2 5y ago

These atms are particularly useful for Ukrainians who have managed to escape with some crypto. Since it can be hard to set up a bank account and exchange account in a new country

BaseballPhysics 5y ago
Ukrainian banks are still part of SWIFT. They can just use the normal banking system. Maybe if you'd said "Russians" I'd understand, since their banking system is partially cut off, but in that case we'd be talking about money laundering intended to bypass international sanctions.
- angio 5y ago
  Some Ukrainian banks (and other services) have been under constant ddos attacks from russian hackers (even before the invasion).
  - BaseballPhysics 5y ago
    SWIFT runs on a separate network that's not affected by internet-based denial of service attacks. I don't see how such a thing would prevent a Ukrainian from accessing their funds via a UK bank.
    - rosndo 5y ago
      As far as I understand SWIFT very much runs over a VPN that works on the public internet. https://www.swift.com/our-solutions/interfaces-and-integration/alliance-connect https://www.swift.com/our-solutions/interfaces-and-integrati... There’s no separate comms infrastructure for SWIFT, it’s very much vulnerable to internet-based DDoS.
      - BaseballPhysics 5y ago
        Ah, yup, SWIFTnet does indeed run over the public internet (apparently that changed way back in 2005, so my information is quite dated!) TIL! The question then becomes: how is the network designed to handle DDoS attacks? For example, you'd need to identify the network segment or host IP address where the SWIFTnet connections are terminated, among many other things, and I have no idea how you'd do that and if the system builds in resiliency for things like DDoSes. Of course, the simpler answer is just to blow up the ISPs and cut power to datacenters. Regardless, if the Ukrainian banking system connection to SWIFT was indeed disrupted, you wouldn't be able to transfer funds to a crypto exchange in the first place, which rather undermines its use as a way to get funds out of the country...