4 ms·

Yeah see, sh*t like that happens when you make a country only based on/for a religion.

by nix23 5y ago

toyg 5y ago
Judaism is not just a religion; because of how they define membership of such religion, it's intrinsecally inseparable from a tribalistic element. Whether that ends up in outright racism, depends on who you ask.
- zozbot234 5y ago
  Hindu religion is quite similar. In fact Judaism explicitly allows for conversion (which, to be sure, is a difficult process) whereas Hinduism only acknowledges "purification" of "ethnically/ancestrally Hindu" people who were introduced to other religions.
  - toyg 5y ago
    Conversions don't grant full "membership" in all circumstances, there are strict conditions.
School-Cotton 5y ago
Jews are an ethnic group, not a religion. (Even if traditionally most members of that ethnic group followed a particular religion, many don’t now).
- ComputerGuru 5y ago
  Except they will give residency to people that converted to Judaism via special programs not available to members of other religions.
- nix23 5y ago
  >Jews are an ethnic group, not a religion. Ethnoreligious...to be precise.
  - ravar 5y ago
    Atheist Christian doesn't make much sense last time I checked.
    - JudgePenitent 5y ago
      And yet Zizek offers himself as that exact contradiction: https://churchlifejournal.nd.edu/articles/zizek-has-a-lot-to-say-about-christ-but-should-the-church-listen/ https://churchlifejournal.nd.edu/articles/zizek-has-a-lot-to... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2UOM3C3q7II https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2UOM3C3q7II Zizek is certainly a madman, being both an atheist christian and a marxist in our day and age
    - nix23 5y ago
      It's a raw definition of a group and not of a single person. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethnoreligious_group https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethnoreligious_group
bitcurious 5y ago
Based on ethnic identity, which is how the vast majority of non-Americas nations are structured. Japan for Japanese, Italy for Italians, Israel for Jews. As an immigrant, I’m partial to the American civic approach, but Israel ain’t special.
- nix23 5y ago
  >Japan for Japanese, Italy for Italians, Israel for Jews With your logic it would be like: Japan is for Shintos, Italy for Roman Catholics, Israel for Jews....sounds terrible no? Since like forever Jews where all over the world (and called it their home) with vastly different cultures/food/music, there is not the ONE Jewish Culture but thousands, you just cant compare it to Japan or Italy. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aliyah#Zionist_Aliyah_(1882_on) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aliyah#Zionist_Aliyah_(1882_on... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aliyah#From_Iran https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aliyah#From_Iran
- taken_username 5y ago
  The problem is judaism is used both for ethnicity and religion. You cannot become a Japanese if you practice their religion for seven years, but you can become Jewish.
- toyg 5y ago
  Italy is explicitly defined in its constitution as a state that does not discriminate on the basis of religion or race. It even recognises a level of jus-soli citizenship for children of non-citizens if born in the country, although after they reach 18 years of age. So I don't know why you'd point it out as an ethnostate - which it definitely has not been for generations, if ever. I know "Italians are racists lol" trends in football subreddits, but that has nothing to do with the law of the land.
- simiones 5y ago
  There are two major problems when comparing these: 1. Israel wasn't formed organically, they first had to get rid of the hundreds of thousands of pesky Palestinians living in Palestine for a few hundred years. The Japanese didn't take over a, say, Chinese island and settle there (though they tried in Manchuria during WWII). 2. None of the other states you mention has anything resembling the ethno-state character of Israel. There is nothing in the Italian constitution that is even slightly aimed at making sure a non-Italian can't become president (even if not explicitly prohibiting it)[0]. Italy doesn't recognize the right of ethnic Italians to automatically become citizens by moving to Italy. [0] though it's rare, there are well known cases of nation states having presidents of minority ethnicity. For example, right now in the middle of war, the president of Ukraine is himself Jewish. Also right now, Klaus Iohannis, of German ethnicity, is president of Romania. Peru has had an ethnically Japanese president (Alberto Fujimori) and more recently the son of an Austrian immigrant.

Yeah see, sh*t like that happens when you make a country only based on/for a religion.

by nix23 5y ago

Yeah see, sh*t like that happens when you make a country only based on/for a religion.

toyg 5y ago

Judaism is not just a religion; because of how they define membership of such religion, it's intrinsecally inseparable from a tribalistic element. Whether that ends up in outright racism, depends on who you ask.

zozbot234 5y ago
Hindu religion is quite similar. In fact Judaism explicitly allows for conversion (which, to be sure, is a difficult process) whereas Hinduism only acknowledges "purification" of "ethnically/ancestrally Hindu" people who were introduced to other religions.
- toyg 5y ago
  Conversions don't grant full "membership" in all circumstances, there are strict conditions.

School-Cotton 5y ago

Jews are an ethnic group, not a religion. (Even if traditionally most members of that ethnic group followed a particular religion, many don’t now).

ComputerGuru 5y ago
Except they will give residency to people that converted to Judaism via special programs not available to members of other religions.
nix23 5y ago
>Jews are an ethnic group, not a religion. Ethnoreligious...to be precise.
- ravar 5y ago
  Atheist Christian doesn't make much sense last time I checked.
  - JudgePenitent 5y ago
    And yet Zizek offers himself as that exact contradiction: https://churchlifejournal.nd.edu/articles/zizek-has-a-lot-to-say-about-christ-but-should-the-church-listen/ https://churchlifejournal.nd.edu/articles/zizek-has-a-lot-to... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2UOM3C3q7II https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2UOM3C3q7II Zizek is certainly a madman, being both an atheist christian and a marxist in our day and age
  - nix23 5y ago
    It's a raw definition of a group and not of a single person. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethnoreligious_group https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethnoreligious_group

bitcurious 5y ago

Based on ethnic identity, which is how the vast majority of non-Americas nations are structured. Japan for Japanese, Italy for Italians, Israel for Jews. As an immigrant, I’m partial to the American civic approach, but Israel ain’t special.

nix23 5y ago
>Japan for Japanese, Italy for Italians, Israel for Jews With your logic it would be like: Japan is for Shintos, Italy for Roman Catholics, Israel for Jews....sounds terrible no? Since like forever Jews where all over the world (and called it their home) with vastly different cultures/food/music, there is not the ONE Jewish Culture but thousands, you just cant compare it to Japan or Italy. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aliyah#Zionist_Aliyah_(1882_on) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aliyah#Zionist_Aliyah_(1882_on... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aliyah#From_Iran https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aliyah#From_Iran
taken_username 5y ago
The problem is judaism is used both for ethnicity and religion. You cannot become a Japanese if you practice their religion for seven years, but you can become Jewish.
toyg 5y ago
Italy is explicitly defined in its constitution as a state that does not discriminate on the basis of religion or race. It even recognises a level of jus-soli citizenship for children of non-citizens if born in the country, although after they reach 18 years of age. So I don't know why you'd point it out as an ethnostate - which it definitely has not been for generations, if ever. I know "Italians are racists lol" trends in football subreddits, but that has nothing to do with the law of the land.
simiones 5y ago
There are two major problems when comparing these: 1. Israel wasn't formed organically, they first had to get rid of the hundreds of thousands of pesky Palestinians living in Palestine for a few hundred years. The Japanese didn't take over a, say, Chinese island and settle there (though they tried in Manchuria during WWII). 2. None of the other states you mention has anything resembling the ethno-state character of Israel. There is nothing in the Italian constitution that is even slightly aimed at making sure a non-Italian can't become president (even if not explicitly prohibiting it)[0]. Italy doesn't recognize the right of ethnic Italians to automatically become citizens by moving to Italy. [0] though it's rare, there are well known cases of nation states having presidents of minority ethnicity. For example, right now in the middle of war, the president of Ukraine is himself Jewish. Also right now, Klaus Iohannis, of German ethnicity, is president of Romania. Peru has had an ethnically Japanese president (Alberto Fujimori) and more recently the son of an Austrian immigrant.