8 ms·

So, 21% of Israel's population has restrictions on who they could marry all so that they can maintain a majority of the favored demographic. This is apartheid.

starik36 5y ago
> favored demographic Right, because the purpose of Israel is to be a Jewish state with a majority Jewish population to protect its Jewish residents from genocides, pogroms, blood libels, and other things that have been done to them for 2 millennia.
- jfiowejf 5y ago
  The same thing they did to the Palestianians. Weird how white supremacy is suddenly cool with a lot of people when you replace white with "Jew"
  - edanm 5y ago
    Wait, explain to me what we Jews should have done after the holocaust, and after many countries kicked out all their Jews. Doesn't starting a Jewish country make sense? There are dozens of other countries around different groups (whether religious or ethnic), how is it wrong for Jews to want the same thing?
pavelrub 5y ago
The restriction applies to everybody, not just Israeli Arabs. However it is true that Israeli Arabs are the ones most affected by it.
- fredophile 5y ago
  Laws that make it illegal to sleep under bridges apply to everybody, not just the homeless. Does that mean a law against sleeping under bridges is not targeting the homeless?
  - thinkcontext 5y ago
    The law also affects Israeli Jews, Christians, atheists, etc that want to marry Palestinians.
    - slim 5y ago
      and palestinian is considered an ethnicity in israel. as opposed to "people coming from the country Palestine". so it's an openly racist law
  - pavelrub 5y ago
    It targets people who sleep under bridges. If, for example, there is a major safety hazard associated with sleeping under bridges, it would make sense to prohibit it, and it would be bizarre to criticize the law just because it affects mostly homeless people. If, on the other hand, the law prohibits only homeless people from sleeping under bridges, it becomes clear that the intent is discriminatory, and this becomes a valid criticism.
    - pthread_t 5y ago
      “There’s no need to shirk from the essence of this law. It is one of the tools to ensure a Jewish majority in Israel, which is the nation-state of the Jewish people. Our goal is for there to be a Jewish majority,” Lapid tweeted shortly before the law lapsed in early July. [0] [0] https://www.timesofisrael.com/months-after-citizenship-law-falls-ban-on-palestinian-spouses-still-in-place/ https://www.timesofisrael.com/months-after-citizenship-law-f...
      - pavelrub 5y ago
        Yes — discussing the actual motivations for the law, as provided to us by Israeli politicians and previous Supreme Court decisions, is a good and valid starting point for discussion. Claiming that the law is bad simply because it disproportionally affects some subset of the Israeli population, is not. The argument I was addressing in this particular subthread is the latter, not the former.
- sndman 5y ago
Danidada 5y ago
they can marry whoever they want, they just won't be naturalized ie if a Palestinian marries an Israeli, the Palestinian won't get Israeli citizenship
- nebula8804 5y ago
  I have seen this talking point repeated exactly in this manner all over Reddit. Was this dispatched from one of those Israel apps that navigate supporters to social media sites to push pro-Israel talking points?
- dmitris 5y ago
  what about their children?
- dundarious 5y ago
  Israel has many laws dictating where you can live and between which areas you can travel, and they depend on its complicated notion of citizenship and nationality. You have far fewer restrictions as a "Jewish nationality, Israeli citizen" than as "any other kind of nationality, Israeli citizen". This is the meaningful difference people are referring to when they say that "Israel is an ethnostate" or talk about "apartheid", because in many instances, in practice you can only do certain basic things like live with your partner if you are a "Jewish nationality, Israeli citizen". Just to give a short (but relatively surface-level) proof that this distinction is real and meaningful in Israeli politics, you can read the most recent former PM's statements in the following link (and I would encourage reading a broad political spectrum of commentary on the various citizenship and nationality laws, in particular those passed in the last few decades, e.g., Nation-State Law): https://www.jpost.com/Israel-News/Benjamin-Netanyahu/Netanyahu-hits-back-at-Israeli-actress-after-she-criticizes-Miri-Regev-582959 https://www.jpost.com/Israel-News/Benjamin-Netanyahu/Netanya...
  - borski 5y ago
    Can you provide an example of what restrictions non-Jewish Israeli citizens have? Because I’m pretty sure all Israeli citizens have the same rights (Al Aqsa mosque and other religious sites notwithstanding).
bradlys 5y ago
> This is apartheid. It’s been this way for a while. This is just one more thing on top of another.
twofornone 5y ago
Israel is surrounded by Arab Muslims who outnumber Jews 100:1 and are overtly hostile to Judaism, as prescribed by their religion. I ask honestly, is it really so wrong for a nation to implement laws to preserve its culture, particularly when it's people constitute a tiny fraction of the global population? Or is support of cultural preservation only virtuous when the alternative is labeled "gentrification"?
- eli_gottlieb 5y ago
  >Or is support of cultural preservation only virtuous when the alternative is labeled "gentrification"? Well yeah. "Cultural preservation" is only good when the NGO class supports it. When they don't like it, it's racism.
- camel_Snake 5y ago
  > and are overtly hostile to Judaism, as prescribed by their religion As a biracial Jew from Pakistan I can assure you this is false. The modern enmity between Jews and Muslims began around the time of Israel's creation [1]. As far as 'preserving culture', this sounds a little to close to the Fourteen Words for my comfort. You can celebrate and keep alive one's own culture without the exclusion and denial of rights to others. I think the idea of ethnostates run counter to the core values of most modern, liberal democracies. [1] https://dailytimes.com.pk/97778/the-jews-of-pakistan/ https://dailytimes.com.pk/97778/the-jews-of-pakistan/
  - twofornone 5y ago
    >I think the idea of ethnostates run counter to the core values of most modern, liberal democracies. But not to the core values of middle eastern Arab countries, which is the point to limiting the possibility of a sizeable proportion of immigrants imposing their incompatible culture onto host nations. >As far as 'preserving culture', this sounds a little to close to the Fourteen Words for my comfort. There is no reason to presume that the values of your "modern, liberal democracies" will be maintained if there is no effort to preserve them. The rest of the world is far less concerned with your ideas regarding women's or LGBT rights. Allusions to the fourteen words are effectively a false equivalence, there is a massive range between maintaining a liberal way of life and going on a multinational genocidal war campaign. >As a biracial Jew from Pakistan I can assure you this is false. The modern enmity between Jews and Muslims began around the time of Israel's creation [1]. The enmity is baked into the Koran and therefore approximately as old as Islam.
tut-urut-utut 5y ago
Don't people actually marry because they love each other, and not as a way to gain a favourable citizenship? How the naturalization law prevents a marriage?
- Siira 5y ago
  It’s immaterial to the purposes of this law. They don’t care why it’s done.
idop 5y ago
Minority groups in Israel actually have less restrictions with regards to marriage than the majority. Minority groups have freedom of religion. I'm a jew by ethnicity but an atheist by religion. I do not have freedom of religion. If I wanted to get married, by law, I am forced to get approval from the Jewish Rabbinate and follow religious protocols that make my skin crawl. And my spouse must be Jewish too.
- SpelingBeeChamp 5y ago
  Not really. You could do what thousands of others do any take a quick trip to Cyprus, get married (regardless of your partner’s religion or sex), and have the marriage civilly recognized in Israel.
  - idop 5y ago
    Gee, thanks.
sgregnt 5y ago
Read the article again. You didn't understand it or check other comments to here, instead of throwing baseless accusations.

starik36 5y ago

> favored demographic Right, because the purpose of Israel is to be a Jewish state with a majority Jewish population to protect its Jewish residents from genocides, pogroms, blood libels, and other things that have been done to them for 2 millennia.

jfiowejf 5y ago
The same thing they did to the Palestianians. Weird how white supremacy is suddenly cool with a lot of people when you replace white with "Jew"
- edanm 5y ago
  Wait, explain to me what we Jews should have done after the holocaust, and after many countries kicked out all their Jews. Doesn't starting a Jewish country make sense? There are dozens of other countries around different groups (whether religious or ethnic), how is it wrong for Jews to want the same thing?

pavelrub 5y ago

The restriction applies to everybody, not just Israeli Arabs. However it is true that Israeli Arabs are the ones most affected by it.

fredophile 5y ago
Laws that make it illegal to sleep under bridges apply to everybody, not just the homeless. Does that mean a law against sleeping under bridges is not targeting the homeless?
- thinkcontext 5y ago
  The law also affects Israeli Jews, Christians, atheists, etc that want to marry Palestinians.
  - slim 5y ago
    and palestinian is considered an ethnicity in israel. as opposed to "people coming from the country Palestine". so it's an openly racist law
- pavelrub 5y ago
  It targets people who sleep under bridges. If, for example, there is a major safety hazard associated with sleeping under bridges, it would make sense to prohibit it, and it would be bizarre to criticize the law just because it affects mostly homeless people. If, on the other hand, the law prohibits only homeless people from sleeping under bridges, it becomes clear that the intent is discriminatory, and this becomes a valid criticism.
  - pthread_t 5y ago
    “There’s no need to shirk from the essence of this law. It is one of the tools to ensure a Jewish majority in Israel, which is the nation-state of the Jewish people. Our goal is for there to be a Jewish majority,” Lapid tweeted shortly before the law lapsed in early July. [0] [0] https://www.timesofisrael.com/months-after-citizenship-law-falls-ban-on-palestinian-spouses-still-in-place/ https://www.timesofisrael.com/months-after-citizenship-law-f...
    - pavelrub 5y ago
      Yes — discussing the actual motivations for the law, as provided to us by Israeli politicians and previous Supreme Court decisions, is a good and valid starting point for discussion. Claiming that the law is bad simply because it disproportionally affects some subset of the Israeli population, is not. The argument I was addressing in this particular subthread is the latter, not the former.
sndman 5y ago

Danidada 5y ago

they can marry whoever they want, they just won't be naturalized ie if a Palestinian marries an Israeli, the Palestinian won't get Israeli citizenship

nebula8804 5y ago
I have seen this talking point repeated exactly in this manner all over Reddit. Was this dispatched from one of those Israel apps that navigate supporters to social media sites to push pro-Israel talking points?
dmitris 5y ago
what about their children?
dundarious 5y ago
Israel has many laws dictating where you can live and between which areas you can travel, and they depend on its complicated notion of citizenship and nationality. You have far fewer restrictions as a "Jewish nationality, Israeli citizen" than as "any other kind of nationality, Israeli citizen". This is the meaningful difference people are referring to when they say that "Israel is an ethnostate" or talk about "apartheid", because in many instances, in practice you can only do certain basic things like live with your partner if you are a "Jewish nationality, Israeli citizen". Just to give a short (but relatively surface-level) proof that this distinction is real and meaningful in Israeli politics, you can read the most recent former PM's statements in the following link (and I would encourage reading a broad political spectrum of commentary on the various citizenship and nationality laws, in particular those passed in the last few decades, e.g., Nation-State Law): https://www.jpost.com/Israel-News/Benjamin-Netanyahu/Netanyahu-hits-back-at-Israeli-actress-after-she-criticizes-Miri-Regev-582959 https://www.jpost.com/Israel-News/Benjamin-Netanyahu/Netanya...
- borski 5y ago
  Can you provide an example of what restrictions non-Jewish Israeli citizens have? Because I’m pretty sure all Israeli citizens have the same rights (Al Aqsa mosque and other religious sites notwithstanding).

bradlys 5y ago

> This is apartheid. It’s been this way for a while. This is just one more thing on top of another.

twofornone 5y ago

Israel is surrounded by Arab Muslims who outnumber Jews 100:1 and are overtly hostile to Judaism, as prescribed by their religion. I ask honestly, is it really so wrong for a nation to implement laws to preserve its culture, particularly when it's people constitute a tiny fraction of the global population? Or is support of cultural preservation only virtuous when the alternative is labeled "gentrification"?

eli_gottlieb 5y ago
>Or is support of cultural preservation only virtuous when the alternative is labeled "gentrification"? Well yeah. "Cultural preservation" is only good when the NGO class supports it. When they don't like it, it's racism.
camel_Snake 5y ago
> and are overtly hostile to Judaism, as prescribed by their religion As a biracial Jew from Pakistan I can assure you this is false. The modern enmity between Jews and Muslims began around the time of Israel's creation [1]. As far as 'preserving culture', this sounds a little to close to the Fourteen Words for my comfort. You can celebrate and keep alive one's own culture without the exclusion and denial of rights to others. I think the idea of ethnostates run counter to the core values of most modern, liberal democracies. [1] https://dailytimes.com.pk/97778/the-jews-of-pakistan/ https://dailytimes.com.pk/97778/the-jews-of-pakistan/
- twofornone 5y ago
  >I think the idea of ethnostates run counter to the core values of most modern, liberal democracies. But not to the core values of middle eastern Arab countries, which is the point to limiting the possibility of a sizeable proportion of immigrants imposing their incompatible culture onto host nations. >As far as 'preserving culture', this sounds a little to close to the Fourteen Words for my comfort. There is no reason to presume that the values of your "modern, liberal democracies" will be maintained if there is no effort to preserve them. The rest of the world is far less concerned with your ideas regarding women's or LGBT rights. Allusions to the fourteen words are effectively a false equivalence, there is a massive range between maintaining a liberal way of life and going on a multinational genocidal war campaign. >As a biracial Jew from Pakistan I can assure you this is false. The modern enmity between Jews and Muslims began around the time of Israel's creation [1]. The enmity is baked into the Koran and therefore approximately as old as Islam.

tut-urut-utut 5y ago

Don't people actually marry because they love each other, and not as a way to gain a favourable citizenship? How the naturalization law prevents a marriage?

Siira 5y ago
It’s immaterial to the purposes of this law. They don’t care why it’s done.

idop 5y ago

Minority groups in Israel actually have less restrictions with regards to marriage than the majority. Minority groups have freedom of religion. I'm a jew by ethnicity but an atheist by religion. I do not have freedom of religion. If I wanted to get married, by law, I am forced to get approval from the Jewish Rabbinate and follow religious protocols that make my skin crawl. And my spouse must be Jewish too.

SpelingBeeChamp 5y ago
Not really. You could do what thousands of others do any take a quick trip to Cyprus, get married (regardless of your partner’s religion or sex), and have the marriage civilly recognized in Israel.
- idop 5y ago
  Gee, thanks.

sgregnt 5y ago

Read the article again. You didn't understand it or check other comments to here, instead of throwing baseless accusations.