4 ms·

How does building closed source products fight open source? They’re not at odds with each other.

by oofbey 5y ago

southerntofu 5y ago
Because either you're struggling for human progress doing research and building tech that empowers people, or you're struggling for profit building harmful tech for the common people. Apple is in the latter category (to be fair, most if not all hardware/software manufacturers are) and has shown time and time again that they were strongly opposed to consumer rights: - pushing updates to slow down older iOS to "encourage" users to buy a new phone - starting with the iPhone they didn't even sell official spare parts, and did all they could to make it hard to crack the phones open (proprietary screw, fuck that) to repair them - lying to consumers about warranty laws, implying their products would be covered only 1y despite european regulations mandating 2y minimum - getting into cushy mafia-like agreements with phone providers which inundated the market with "cheap" iPhones subsided by non-iPhone subscribers - using proprietary connectors wherever they can (no ethernet? no jack? FUCK) - by making it harder to use non-Apple-approved applications on MacOS and making it so applications can't even start when their "approval" server is down?! - and so much more, just like with every other company We need tech that empowers people. Private companies and Nation States are building a dystopian nightmare that's the exact opposite of that (we're in a cross-over fanfiction mixing Orwell and Huxley). Apple is certainly part of that.
- cruano 5y ago
  Sounds like you only read the headlines and not actually use any of their products Also really? you are either all-loving-god or the devil, no greys for you
  - fsflover 5y ago
    > Sounds like you only read the headlines and not actually use any of their products How are these two things connected with the partent's post? >you are either all-loving-god or the devil, no greys for you No, but Apple is certainly a dark kind of grey: https://www.fsf.org/news/the-problems-with-apple-arent-just-outages-they-are-injustices https://www.fsf.org/news/the-problems-with-apple-arent-just-....
- oofbey 5y ago
  "You're either with us or against us" is a successful rallying cry for extremists, but it's not how most people view the world. I think if you survey FOSS developers, you'll find a LOT of them (including me) use and enjoy Apple products - not sure how this fits into your world view. It's possible, I'd say completely normal, to both want to make money, and to improve the world. I think most people see this as a balance that needs to be struck.
  - southerntofu 5y ago
    > It's possible, I'd say completely normal, to both want to make money, and to improve the world. Yes because we're all brainwashed into "making a living". In what world is it normal to have to pay just to live?! Making money is precisely the mindset that's destroying our entire planet. I'm not saying things are binary good/evil but capitalism is certainly the one thing creating the most suffering on this planet, and is essentially the driving force behind everything climate change. It's hard to find a corporation that can fill any form of ethical criteria. Maybe an organic bakery sources local products and produces quality breads, but when it comes to IT there is no "ethical company" because everything we build relies on slave labor from mines/factories and extreme pollution in the global south... BUT i would be tempted to say an IT company is on the other side of the spectrum if it attempts to respect its users by fighting hard against planned obsolescence (only sourcing quality materials, making disassembly/replacement easy) and for free computing (full schematics for every single part of the hardware, full source code for all firmware). I just don't know a single IT corporation that fits the bill, although Purism/Pine64/Oxide get closer than most. We need 30+ years warranty on all devices. How come washing machines from the 50s are still working today, but those produced 5 years ago are breaking down as we speak? Yes, that's because of profits, as explained previously. Eliminate profit as a driving force for society and suddenly you'll see a lot of data points starting to improve.
- sandman008 5y ago
  > - pushing updates to slow down older iOS to "encourage" users to buy a new phone Apple down older iPhones to make their batteries last longer. They were penalized by court for not communicating this decision to iPhone owners, not for slowing down battery.
approxim8ion 5y ago
Because as long as you can do one, you have no reason to do the other if you are not philosophically inclined to. They are absolutely at odds with each other.
- cruano 5y ago
  > if you are not philosophically inclined to You can be pushed by shareholders/public opinion, in the same way they get pushed to be environmentally or privacy conscious
  - fsflover 5y ago
    It's naive to think that a push by environmental/conscious reasons is as strong as one by the money.
    - jen20 5y ago
      Ironic given the original reason that GNU exists is not monetary.
      - fsflover 5y ago
        Why is this ironic? It just proves my point: how large is GNU and how large is Apple?
fsflover 5y ago
https://developer.apple.com/forums/thread/18922 https://developer.apple.com/forums/thread/18922
- oofbey 5y ago
  Interesting - I didn't know you couldn't submit GPL-licensed code to the app store. It's surprising to me, but I can imagine a legal reason why it could be difficult for them to support. Still, seems like it should be possible. But GPL isn't the only kind of open source. In fact, it's an extreme form. I've spent a lot of time contributing to open source projects, but I stay away from GPL, because they are really limiting in what you can do with them.

How does building closed source products fight open source? They’re not at odds with each other.

by oofbey 5y ago

How does building closed source products fight open source? They’re not at odds with each other.

Because either you're struggling for human progress doing research and building tech that empowers people, or you're struggling for profit building harmful tech for the common people. Apple is in the latter category (to be fair, most if not all hardware/software manufacturers are) and has shown time and time again that they were strongly opposed to consumer rights: - pushing updates to slow down older iOS to "encourage" users to buy a new phone - starting with the iPhone they didn't even sell official spare parts, and did all they could to make it hard to crack the phones open (proprietary screw, fuck that) to repair them - lying to consumers about warranty laws, implying their products would be covered only 1y despite european regulations mandating 2y minimum - getting into cushy mafia-like agreements with phone providers which inundated the market with "cheap" iPhones subsided by non-iPhone subscribers - using proprietary connectors wherever they can (no ethernet? no jack? FUCK) - by making it harder to use non-Apple-approved applications on MacOS and making it so applications can't even start when their "approval" server is down?! - and so much more, just like with every other company We need tech that empowers people. Private companies and Nation States are building a dystopian nightmare that's the exact opposite of that (we're in a cross-over fanfiction mixing Orwell and Huxley). Apple is certainly part of that.

cruano 5y ago
Sounds like you only read the headlines and not actually use any of their products Also really? you are either all-loving-god or the devil, no greys for you
- fsflover 5y ago
  > Sounds like you only read the headlines and not actually use any of their products How are these two things connected with the partent's post? >you are either all-loving-god or the devil, no greys for you No, but Apple is certainly a dark kind of grey: https://www.fsf.org/news/the-problems-with-apple-arent-just-outages-they-are-injustices https://www.fsf.org/news/the-problems-with-apple-arent-just-....
oofbey 5y ago
"You're either with us or against us" is a successful rallying cry for extremists, but it's not how most people view the world. I think if you survey FOSS developers, you'll find a LOT of them (including me) use and enjoy Apple products - not sure how this fits into your world view. It's possible, I'd say completely normal, to both want to make money, and to improve the world. I think most people see this as a balance that needs to be struck.
- southerntofu 5y ago
  > It's possible, I'd say completely normal, to both want to make money, and to improve the world. Yes because we're all brainwashed into "making a living". In what world is it normal to have to pay just to live?! Making money is precisely the mindset that's destroying our entire planet. I'm not saying things are binary good/evil but capitalism is certainly the one thing creating the most suffering on this planet, and is essentially the driving force behind everything climate change. It's hard to find a corporation that can fill any form of ethical criteria. Maybe an organic bakery sources local products and produces quality breads, but when it comes to IT there is no "ethical company" because everything we build relies on slave labor from mines/factories and extreme pollution in the global south... BUT i would be tempted to say an IT company is on the other side of the spectrum if it attempts to respect its users by fighting hard against planned obsolescence (only sourcing quality materials, making disassembly/replacement easy) and for free computing (full schematics for every single part of the hardware, full source code for all firmware). I just don't know a single IT corporation that fits the bill, although Purism/Pine64/Oxide get closer than most. We need 30+ years warranty on all devices. How come washing machines from the 50s are still working today, but those produced 5 years ago are breaking down as we speak? Yes, that's because of profits, as explained previously. Eliminate profit as a driving force for society and suddenly you'll see a lot of data points starting to improve.
sandman008 5y ago
> - pushing updates to slow down older iOS to "encourage" users to buy a new phone Apple down older iPhones to make their batteries last longer. They were penalized by court for not communicating this decision to iPhone owners, not for slowing down battery.

approxim8ion 5y ago

Because as long as you can do one, you have no reason to do the other if you are not philosophically inclined to. They are absolutely at odds with each other.

cruano 5y ago
> if you are not philosophically inclined to You can be pushed by shareholders/public opinion, in the same way they get pushed to be environmentally or privacy conscious
- fsflover 5y ago
  It's naive to think that a push by environmental/conscious reasons is as strong as one by the money.
  - jen20 5y ago
    Ironic given the original reason that GNU exists is not monetary.
    - fsflover 5y ago
      Why is this ironic? It just proves my point: how large is GNU and how large is Apple?

fsflover 5y ago

https://developer.apple.com/forums/thread/18922 https://developer.apple.com/forums/thread/18922

oofbey 5y ago
Interesting - I didn't know you couldn't submit GPL-licensed code to the app store. It's surprising to me, but I can imagine a legal reason why it could be difficult for them to support. Still, seems like it should be possible. But GPL isn't the only kind of open source. In fact, it's an extreme form. I've spent a lot of time contributing to open source projects, but I stay away from GPL, because they are really limiting in what you can do with them.