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So, can anybody recommend an EV that is not a smartphone on wheels, but an actual car that just happens to be electric? I really would like to get a Tesla, but

So, can anybody recommend an EV that is not a smartphone on wheels, but an actual car that just happens to be electric? I really would like to get a Tesla, but besides the manufacturing issues (like large gaps between the panels) the IP and data issues are really putting me off. - Car is always online, gets OTA updates, GPS is always running - Cameras inside of the car - Tesla can remotely downgrade or deactivate the car - Independent mechanics can't repair many things

nharada 5y ago
I love my Chevy Bolt as a (relatively) cheap city car. You'll probably be able to get one cheap once the battery recall issues are resolved. I got it for ~22k out the door new. It's not fully disconnected, but I basically feel like it's my car. I don't pay for any subscriptions (OnStar and XM are both available), and software updates are possible OTA but not required. No cameras (as far as I know) anywhere besides the backup cam. I'm not sure how repairable the electronics are as luckily I've never needed any non-warranty work done. There was an issue with the hands-free mics and I took it in to a local dealer and they just replaced a module under warranty. On the downside, it's a city car. Gets 260 miles of range, but fast charge rates are outdated (55kw max) and make road tripping harder than a more modern EV.
groos 5y ago
If you want a "real", no-compromise EV, there really isn't any alternative to Tesla. For me, the killer feature was a supercharging network. Without it, you have an expensive toy unless you are just going to potter around town on short trips. Even though most day I just charge my car at home, there's no way I would have bought a Tesla without the supercharging network. Re. panel gaps and build quality, yes, the outside build/paint quality is about average (the seats are _very_ nice) but this is not why I bought a Tesla. I wanted the next generation vehicle tech and a car that can really go without making a fuss. Had I wanted absolutely even panel gaps, I would have bought a German or Japanese gas car. Re. OTA updates, my 3+ year old car feels it was bought this year because of OTA updates. I have no desire to acquire a new model because the newer model will practically be identical to mine, apart from the mileage. [edit:typos]
- outworlder 5y ago
  > Without it, you have an expensive toy unless you are just going to potter around town on short trips. While it's a massive advantage for Tesla, that's a bit too harsh and highly dependent on where you live. Note that over 90% of all trips even in the US are well within the range of modern EVs.
- rurp 5y ago
  I don't understand how this answers GPs question at all. They already said that they don't want OTA update type "features". I'm interested because I've had similar questions myself. I'd like to buy an electric car but hate touch screen controls, telemetry, and being forced to rely on the manufacturer for repairs. So far I don't know of any EVs that come without those design issues.
krazerlasers 5y ago
Not sure where you live, but there were a lot of 'compliance cars' in California which were factory EV conversions of their traditional offerings. As an example, the Fiat 500e (2013-2019, it has since been replaced by a ground-up electric version with the same faults as described in the article) is a normal 500 fitted with a Bosch SMG 180/120 motor and associated support components. The 500e is virtually identical to the ICE version of the car, with a very hacked up looking shifter filler panel with buttons to control the motor and charger jack inside the gas filler door. The main downside with the compliance car life is they are all very short range, generally 50-100 miles. Also now that the program is shut down you don't get the rebate anymore so they are all discontinued (but readily available used). There is no DRM on the Bosch SMG system, I have an android app and bluetooth adapter that lets you view all of the CAN messages, and many people online have successfully rebuilt their batteries with more modern cells to increase the range.
- nebula8804 5y ago
  Do you have any links to people rebuilding their batteries? That is pretty amazing if done economically.
  - krazerlasers 5y ago
    The best documented is M. Waddle's project https://mandmwaddle.ca/projects/fiat-500e/ https://mandmwaddle.ca/projects/fiat-500e/ He was able to rescue the existing deep discharged battery in his car, but the steps would be roughly the same to replace a submodule (readily available from totals cars). There are also people looking into replacing the individual prismatic cells (the 500e is built with 63AHr samsung SDI cells, and there are now 120AHr cells available in the same form factor) but so far the only success story is from an outfit in Europe building custom packs out of banks of cylindrical cells https://www.fiat500owners.com/threads/upgrading-battery-for-500e.147811/ https://www.fiat500owners.com/threads/upgrading-battery-for-...
tmountain 5y ago
Bollinger was making headway on a "no nonsense electric truck"; meaning, a dumb truck, but it looks like they've shifted focus to delivering a commercial fleet instead. https://bollingermotors.com/bollinger-b1/ https://bollingermotors.com/bollinger-b1/
kehrin 5y ago
The VW eGolf (discontinued) was a Golf that „just happened to be electric“. It has limited range though.
- captainmuon 5y ago
  Yes, and it seems the ID.3, which is the spiritual successor, has some of the classic EV problems. Like a buggy central computer that will need updates after launch. I understand they needed to completely redo the platform to take advantage of the EV characteristics (e.g. you need space below to put the battery, you can design the car around the lower center of mass, you don't need an engine bay, ...). But I think they should have kept the Golf name and the interior concept (mechanical switches etc.) when switching to the new platform. After all, you buy a VW (here in Europe at least) if you want a no-nonsense, slightly boring, solid car and are willing to pay a little bit more. It's like an understated status symbol.
  - germinalphrase 5y ago
    I’d bet the ID.3 is more of a testing platform for the EV related driving experience than a vehicle intended to appeal to a mass audience. If VW fully commits to EV across the range, the EV in that family will be styled more like the GTI than the ID.3 (which would probably be pretty sweet).
  - reacharavindh 5y ago
    This. I drive and love my GOLF in Netherlands. It’s simply a no nonsense reliable car. I wish VW sees the value of what they are liked for and retain that usefulness in their EVs for when I get in the market for one after my GOLF gives out.
    - w3news 5y ago
      Indeed, i had also a Golf (TDI) from 2005, very reliable car that works always, it is simple and everybody can repair it. Why cannot they make EV's that are simple, we dont need all the gadgets that will break.
goodcanadian 5y ago
I highly recommend Nissan Leaf. I can't speak so much about new ones (though I doubt Nissan's philosophy has changed much), but my 2013 Leaf works just fine. As another commenter pointed out, there are independent garages that can work on them and you can do after market changes. Electric cars in general are not all that complicated; I think the shortage of independent mechanics has more to do with the historical rarity of electric cars. The mechanics will come as the cars come. Unlike most other makes, Nissan also now has more than a decade of experience manufacturing electric cars. In my opinion, it shows.
- kiwidrew 5y ago
  2nd this. In addition, it's easy to obtain the service manuals for the older Leaf models (up to around 2018). The design of the Leaf is very similar to other Nissan vehicles, so working on the car's non-drivetrain components is easy. The electric drivetrain itself has proven to be very reliable so far.
- secabeen 5y ago
  Just be very careful when buying a used leaf that has any chance of having spent time in the southwest. The OG leafs have no battery temperature management, and many of had their batteries baked in the Arizona sun.
- outworlder 5y ago
  I'll vouch for the Leaf too. Drawbacks are: really hot climates will mess up the battery due to lack of active cooling. Really cold climates require the cold weather package for the battery warmer. Nissan doesn't really have a good story when the battery needs replacement - but maybe third party shops will by then. If you do have QuickCharging, it uses ChaDeMo, which is dying. But it's still commonplace and will be for a while. Other than that, I don't think about maintenance (maybe tire rotation and cabin filter?). No need to think when the next oil change is due. Registration renewal doesn't require a smog check. No OTA updates (both a blessing and a curse). It works as a normal vehicle for all intents and purposes, minus gas stations.
  - 5y ago
Faaak 5y ago
Old (discontinued) hyundai ioniq (2016-2020), Renault Zoe, Peugeot e 208, etc...
edent 5y ago
Kia Soul EV. No internet connectivity whatsoever. Great ride, decent battery pack, outdated entertainment system and no "smarts".
audunw 5y ago
What exactly do you mean by smartphone on wheels? Modern EVs have quite a lot of "smart" software functionality just like modern ICE cars. Both modern ICE and EVs have complex ECUs that may need proprietary equipment to service. Most are a lot less smartphone-like than Tesla though. Our old Kia Soul EV is just like Kia Soul... but EV. We're now upgrading to Hyundai Ioniq 5, which is a small iteration towards "smartness" compared to the Kia. You can remotely check charging status and start the heater/cooler from your phone, so it is connected and always online I guess. There are OTA updates, but only for infotainment, not for drivetrain like with Tesla. No camera inside the car. I seriously doubt Hyundai will do remote downgrades or deactivations. I don't know of any issues for independent mechanics.
- captainmuon 5y ago
  > What exactly do you mean by smartphone on wheels? A car that requires a subscription or an account to use all of its features. Or a car that requires me to use a big touchscreen while driving. I do like all kinds of modern conveniences, like lane assist or semi-autonomous driving on the autobahn/freeway. I like it when the media center is smart and can play Spotify and show me a list of radio channels with pictures and so on. I don't like it when the media center or the GPS is too deeply integrated into the car, I've had too many cars where the radio became outdated quickly. Ideally, you should be able to buy the car and the media center separately like in the olden days, but I think that ship has sailed. What I don't like is car makers using DRM and other tech to extract more money from me. Cars are ridiculously overpriced anyway (First, cars loose a lot of value the moment you leave the dealership. Second, the dealerships are able to give crazy discounts on the list price.)
  - outworlder 5y ago
    > Or a car that requires me to use a big touchscreen while driving. That's Tesla and Tesla copycats. Most EVs are not like that. > A car that requires a subscription or an account to use all of its features Bunch of ICE vehicles have this sort of thing now.

nharada 5y ago

I love my Chevy Bolt as a (relatively) cheap city car. You'll probably be able to get one cheap once the battery recall issues are resolved. I got it for ~22k out the door new. It's not fully disconnected, but I basically feel like it's my car. I don't pay for any subscriptions (OnStar and XM are both available), and software updates are possible OTA but not required. No cameras (as far as I know) anywhere besides the backup cam. I'm not sure how repairable the electronics are as luckily I've never needed any non-warranty work done. There was an issue with the hands-free mics and I took it in to a local dealer and they just replaced a module under warranty. On the downside, it's a city car. Gets 260 miles of range, but fast charge rates are outdated (55kw max) and make road tripping harder than a more modern EV.

groos 5y ago

If you want a "real", no-compromise EV, there really isn't any alternative to Tesla. For me, the killer feature was a supercharging network. Without it, you have an expensive toy unless you are just going to potter around town on short trips. Even though most day I just charge my car at home, there's no way I would have bought a Tesla without the supercharging network. Re. panel gaps and build quality, yes, the outside build/paint quality is about average (the seats are _very_ nice) but this is not why I bought a Tesla. I wanted the next generation vehicle tech and a car that can really go without making a fuss. Had I wanted absolutely even panel gaps, I would have bought a German or Japanese gas car. Re. OTA updates, my 3+ year old car feels it was bought this year because of OTA updates. I have no desire to acquire a new model because the newer model will practically be identical to mine, apart from the mileage. [edit:typos]

outworlder 5y ago
> Without it, you have an expensive toy unless you are just going to potter around town on short trips. While it's a massive advantage for Tesla, that's a bit too harsh and highly dependent on where you live. Note that over 90% of all trips even in the US are well within the range of modern EVs.
rurp 5y ago
I don't understand how this answers GPs question at all. They already said that they don't want OTA update type "features". I'm interested because I've had similar questions myself. I'd like to buy an electric car but hate touch screen controls, telemetry, and being forced to rely on the manufacturer for repairs. So far I don't know of any EVs that come without those design issues.

krazerlasers 5y ago

Not sure where you live, but there were a lot of 'compliance cars' in California which were factory EV conversions of their traditional offerings. As an example, the Fiat 500e (2013-2019, it has since been replaced by a ground-up electric version with the same faults as described in the article) is a normal 500 fitted with a Bosch SMG 180/120 motor and associated support components. The 500e is virtually identical to the ICE version of the car, with a very hacked up looking shifter filler panel with buttons to control the motor and charger jack inside the gas filler door. The main downside with the compliance car life is they are all very short range, generally 50-100 miles. Also now that the program is shut down you don't get the rebate anymore so they are all discontinued (but readily available used). There is no DRM on the Bosch SMG system, I have an android app and bluetooth adapter that lets you view all of the CAN messages, and many people online have successfully rebuilt their batteries with more modern cells to increase the range.

nebula8804 5y ago
Do you have any links to people rebuilding their batteries? That is pretty amazing if done economically.
- krazerlasers 5y ago
  The best documented is M. Waddle's project https://mandmwaddle.ca/projects/fiat-500e/ https://mandmwaddle.ca/projects/fiat-500e/ He was able to rescue the existing deep discharged battery in his car, but the steps would be roughly the same to replace a submodule (readily available from totals cars). There are also people looking into replacing the individual prismatic cells (the 500e is built with 63AHr samsung SDI cells, and there are now 120AHr cells available in the same form factor) but so far the only success story is from an outfit in Europe building custom packs out of banks of cylindrical cells https://www.fiat500owners.com/threads/upgrading-battery-for-500e.147811/ https://www.fiat500owners.com/threads/upgrading-battery-for-...

tmountain 5y ago

Bollinger was making headway on a "no nonsense electric truck"; meaning, a dumb truck, but it looks like they've shifted focus to delivering a commercial fleet instead. https://bollingermotors.com/bollinger-b1/ https://bollingermotors.com/bollinger-b1/

kehrin 5y ago

The VW eGolf (discontinued) was a Golf that „just happened to be electric“. It has limited range though.

captainmuon 5y ago
Yes, and it seems the ID.3, which is the spiritual successor, has some of the classic EV problems. Like a buggy central computer that will need updates after launch. I understand they needed to completely redo the platform to take advantage of the EV characteristics (e.g. you need space below to put the battery, you can design the car around the lower center of mass, you don't need an engine bay, ...). But I think they should have kept the Golf name and the interior concept (mechanical switches etc.) when switching to the new platform. After all, you buy a VW (here in Europe at least) if you want a no-nonsense, slightly boring, solid car and are willing to pay a little bit more. It's like an understated status symbol.
- germinalphrase 5y ago
  I’d bet the ID.3 is more of a testing platform for the EV related driving experience than a vehicle intended to appeal to a mass audience. If VW fully commits to EV across the range, the EV in that family will be styled more like the GTI than the ID.3 (which would probably be pretty sweet).
- reacharavindh 5y ago
  This. I drive and love my GOLF in Netherlands. It’s simply a no nonsense reliable car. I wish VW sees the value of what they are liked for and retain that usefulness in their EVs for when I get in the market for one after my GOLF gives out.
  - w3news 5y ago
    Indeed, i had also a Golf (TDI) from 2005, very reliable car that works always, it is simple and everybody can repair it. Why cannot they make EV's that are simple, we dont need all the gadgets that will break.

goodcanadian 5y ago

I highly recommend Nissan Leaf. I can't speak so much about new ones (though I doubt Nissan's philosophy has changed much), but my 2013 Leaf works just fine. As another commenter pointed out, there are independent garages that can work on them and you can do after market changes. Electric cars in general are not all that complicated; I think the shortage of independent mechanics has more to do with the historical rarity of electric cars. The mechanics will come as the cars come. Unlike most other makes, Nissan also now has more than a decade of experience manufacturing electric cars. In my opinion, it shows.

kiwidrew 5y ago
2nd this. In addition, it's easy to obtain the service manuals for the older Leaf models (up to around 2018). The design of the Leaf is very similar to other Nissan vehicles, so working on the car's non-drivetrain components is easy. The electric drivetrain itself has proven to be very reliable so far.
secabeen 5y ago
Just be very careful when buying a used leaf that has any chance of having spent time in the southwest. The OG leafs have no battery temperature management, and many of had their batteries baked in the Arizona sun.
outworlder 5y ago
I'll vouch for the Leaf too. Drawbacks are: really hot climates will mess up the battery due to lack of active cooling. Really cold climates require the cold weather package for the battery warmer. Nissan doesn't really have a good story when the battery needs replacement - but maybe third party shops will by then. If you do have QuickCharging, it uses ChaDeMo, which is dying. But it's still commonplace and will be for a while. Other than that, I don't think about maintenance (maybe tire rotation and cabin filter?). No need to think when the next oil change is due. Registration renewal doesn't require a smog check. No OTA updates (both a blessing and a curse). It works as a normal vehicle for all intents and purposes, minus gas stations.
- 5y ago

Faaak 5y ago

Old (discontinued) hyundai ioniq (2016-2020), Renault Zoe, Peugeot e 208, etc...

edent 5y ago

Kia Soul EV. No internet connectivity whatsoever. Great ride, decent battery pack, outdated entertainment system and no "smarts".

audunw 5y ago

What exactly do you mean by smartphone on wheels? Modern EVs have quite a lot of "smart" software functionality just like modern ICE cars. Both modern ICE and EVs have complex ECUs that may need proprietary equipment to service. Most are a lot less smartphone-like than Tesla though. Our old Kia Soul EV is just like Kia Soul... but EV. We're now upgrading to Hyundai Ioniq 5, which is a small iteration towards "smartness" compared to the Kia. You can remotely check charging status and start the heater/cooler from your phone, so it is connected and always online I guess. There are OTA updates, but only for infotainment, not for drivetrain like with Tesla. No camera inside the car. I seriously doubt Hyundai will do remote downgrades or deactivations. I don't know of any issues for independent mechanics.

captainmuon 5y ago
> What exactly do you mean by smartphone on wheels? A car that requires a subscription or an account to use all of its features. Or a car that requires me to use a big touchscreen while driving. I do like all kinds of modern conveniences, like lane assist or semi-autonomous driving on the autobahn/freeway. I like it when the media center is smart and can play Spotify and show me a list of radio channels with pictures and so on. I don't like it when the media center or the GPS is too deeply integrated into the car, I've had too many cars where the radio became outdated quickly. Ideally, you should be able to buy the car and the media center separately like in the olden days, but I think that ship has sailed. What I don't like is car makers using DRM and other tech to extract more money from me. Cars are ridiculously overpriced anyway (First, cars loose a lot of value the moment you leave the dealership. Second, the dealerships are able to give crazy discounts on the list price.)
- outworlder 5y ago
  > Or a car that requires me to use a big touchscreen while driving. That's Tesla and Tesla copycats. Most EVs are not like that. > A car that requires a subscription or an account to use all of its features Bunch of ICE vehicles have this sort of thing now.