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> The easy out for Ukraine was to just go neutral, like Austria. Russia wants both neutral status and demilitarization. That's to make it easy to invade and th

> The easy out for Ukraine was to just go neutral, like Austria. Russia wants both neutral status and demilitarization. That's to make it easy to invade and they would be fools to do so. Neutral status was de facto there, they couldn't join NATO on account of Crimea. (Joining NATO would mean no Russian invasion so they would be fools not to pursue that regardless...) Also, what Russia says it wants is irrelevant, judging by the fact this was planned out since November last year. Russia just wants to annex the whole of Ukraine and partition it as per plans Lukashenko presented, anything else they say is lies. I'd say stop being so naive / start double checking your assumptions. Some more things as I read: > Putin could have easily wiped Ukraine off the map How?, nukes?, Russia would be next to be wiped off the map, and the rest of us with it. Conventionally?, well, that's not working out too well now is it? > Is there another explanation for Ukraine's/Zelenskyy's behavior here Patriotism, courage?, you see your country invaded by Russia you stay and fight. If you meant demilitarizing, that would be stupid as Russia would have invaded anyway and it would have made things simpler as there would be no fighting back. Where's Putin right now btw?, hiding in a bunker? > I'm also curious why Europe supported this. Ukraine was already de facto neutral. What exactly did Europe support?, you wanted Europe to tell Zelensky to dismiss his army and let the Russians roll in? Or you mean military support right now? This is because of what Russia is doing in Ukraine and I'd say its not enough. NSFL: (parents and children dead taking their kids to daycare, hit by grad rocket artillery) https://old.reddit.com/r/ukraine/comments/t12lna/akhtyrka_ukraine_russian_invaders_attacked_a/ https://old.reddit.com/r/ukraine/comments/t12lna/akhtyrka_uk... NSFL: (6 year old dead due to shrapnel) https://apnews.com/article/russia-ukraine-europe-a8bb96288aaf70f9a7f70e9a4fac8160 https://apnews.com/article/russia-ukraine-europe-a8bb96288aa... And many more like the bombing of a maternity hospital, bombing people's homes, bombing people trying to evacuate and ignoring negotiated ceasefires... > Russia -- try to establish yourself as a powerful nation once again, and don't let the US box you in If anything, the war proved Russia is a paper tiger and would get obliterated without nukes. It also cut it off from the international market and destroyed its economy, if anything it's not logical for them, it's just old school imperialism and delusion from Putin. Nobody was threatening it with nukes.

mytailorisrich 5y ago
Ukraine was not "de facto" neutral. Certainly not since all that happened in 2014. Government has been pro-West and were receiving military help from the West, and that's why some were proposing a formal agreement of neutrality, although that would not have resolved territorial issues. The country has been a pawn in the game between the West and Russia and it's rather clear that the West want Ukraine and that it is also very special for Russia. The country is also quite divided ethnically and historically and its current official borders are indeed the result of Soviet/Russian 'engineering'. This map of the 2014 elections is telling: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukraine#/media/File:Ukr_elections_2014_multimandate_okruhs.png https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukraine#/media/File:Ukr_electi... I think we've reached a point where partition might be the least bad option, although good luck trying to even propose this and then to agree on how even if it has de facto already started. Btw, posting graphic pictures of war victims does not make a geopolitical point.
- adriancr 5y ago
  > Ukraine was not "de facto" neutral. I disagree, neutral means no military alliance to protect it. Ukraine was not part of NATO or EU and it did not have any chance of becoming so with ongoing conflict. > The country is also quite divided ethnically and historically and its current official borders are indeed the result of Soviet/Russian 'engineering'. It doesn't give Russia the right to invade though. > I think we've reached a point where partition might be the least bad option, although good luck trying to even propose this and then agreeing on how. I'd say the least bad option is Ukraine defeating Russia. I'd also dream of a coup in Russia with Putin getting executed. > Btw, posting graphic pictures of war victims does not make a geopolitical point. It's an answer to "I'm also curious why Europe supported this.". Europe supports Ukraine because of the slaughter in Ukraine, these war crimes motivates populations, and in a democracy this influences politicians. So I guess it's a geopolitical point as well? Also people can avoid clicking on them, warning is before them.
dragonwriter 5y ago
> Russia wants both neutral status and demilitarization. No, it wants demilitarization and a binding commitment against allying with the West. It has never asked for a neutrality agreement like the one imposed on Austria, and fairly overtly hopes (and would almost certainly help) a pro-Russian government to come to power once it had permanently separated Ukraine from the West, so it could establish a relationship like it has now with Belarus, and like it had with Uktraine before Yanukovych was deposed.

mytailorisrich 5y ago

Ukraine was not "de facto" neutral. Certainly not since all that happened in 2014. Government has been pro-West and were receiving military help from the West, and that's why some were proposing a formal agreement of neutrality, although that would not have resolved territorial issues. The country has been a pawn in the game between the West and Russia and it's rather clear that the West want Ukraine and that it is also very special for Russia. The country is also quite divided ethnically and historically and its current official borders are indeed the result of Soviet/Russian 'engineering'. This map of the 2014 elections is telling: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukraine#/media/File:Ukr_elections_2014_multimandate_okruhs.png https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukraine#/media/File:Ukr_electi... I think we've reached a point where partition might be the least bad option, although good luck trying to even propose this and then to agree on how even if it has de facto already started. Btw, posting graphic pictures of war victims does not make a geopolitical point.

adriancr 5y ago
> Ukraine was not "de facto" neutral. I disagree, neutral means no military alliance to protect it. Ukraine was not part of NATO or EU and it did not have any chance of becoming so with ongoing conflict. > The country is also quite divided ethnically and historically and its current official borders are indeed the result of Soviet/Russian 'engineering'. It doesn't give Russia the right to invade though. > I think we've reached a point where partition might be the least bad option, although good luck trying to even propose this and then agreeing on how. I'd say the least bad option is Ukraine defeating Russia. I'd also dream of a coup in Russia with Putin getting executed. > Btw, posting graphic pictures of war victims does not make a geopolitical point. It's an answer to "I'm also curious why Europe supported this.". Europe supports Ukraine because of the slaughter in Ukraine, these war crimes motivates populations, and in a democracy this influences politicians. So I guess it's a geopolitical point as well? Also people can avoid clicking on them, warning is before them.

dragonwriter 5y ago

> Russia wants both neutral status and demilitarization. No, it wants demilitarization and a binding commitment against allying with the West. It has never asked for a neutrality agreement like the one imposed on Austria, and fairly overtly hopes (and would almost certainly help) a pro-Russian government to come to power once it had permanently separated Ukraine from the West, so it could establish a relationship like it has now with Belarus, and like it had with Uktraine before Yanukovych was deposed.