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Ask HN: As non-nuke power, why fight a nuke power, esp if you have an easy out?

The easy out for Ukraine was to just go neutral, like Austria. Then live happily ever after. And, ps, your enemy has a trump card in the form of a massive nuclear weapon stash -- maybe the largest in the world -- you want to force him to play his trump card? The US is the only country to have detonated nukes in a war situation -- there is already precedent -- the world did not end -- it might not end this time, too. Maybe. Nuclear weapon use is definitely on the table. You, as Ukraine, do not have nukes -- but you fight a nuclear power anyways? Whut? Instead, if you went neutral, you could lead the vanguard in establishing nuclear-free zones in Europe. You could still buy lots of guns and big trucks, like many of your American friends, in case you need your toxic masculinity to run a bit wild -- just no nukes or other big missile systems and such that could really damage Russia too quickly. Nobody could blame you for acceding to 'the madman, Putin' -- Putin could have easily wiped Ukraine off the map, you _had_ to agree to neutrality -- this is the easiest out ever -- let everybody else worry about fighting proxy wars. Of course, the US could turn Bambi into the greatest monster on earth, so there's that. But if your enemy has THESUPERDUPERMEGADEATHGUN, wouldn't you rather just _not_ fight with them? Maybe you can just give the bully your lunchtime scooby-doo snack and live to fight another day? Is there another explanation for Ukraine's/Zelenskyy's behavior here, other than the obvious, that is -- that the US forced him to do it? (Else, he'd lose US support, and the next US-supported comedian/actor/dictator/whatever would come in.) I'm also curious why Europe supported this. Every intelligence service in the world knew that Russia would attack Ukraine if US/Nato/EU/Europe kept pushing Ukraine into Nato membership. I'm not interested in hippie-dippie morality right and wrong stuff, here -- I'm talking pure realpolitik -- 'great power politics' -- whatever label you want to put on it. What was Europe thinking? It seems to me that the 75% chance outcome was a MASSIVE refugee crisis throughout Europe -- and about 8,000 other detrimental effects of this policy-which-would-inevitably-lead-to-war-and-disaster-soon. Europe was _so_ intent on pleasing their master, the US, that they intentionally and recklessly followed _this_ path?? That legit seems crazy to me. If there's not a moral reason for it, and there's not a realpolitik reason for it, then... what's left? Insanity? I think Zelenskyy chose himself over his country, but to me that's expected -- Putin did the same thing, Biden, Trump, most of Europe, etc. Politicians gonna pol. But if you're say, the leader of France -- Macron -- why get behind Nato expansion for Ukraine? Ditto Germany. Are you so subservient to US power that you have no ability to act in your own best interests? It's just difficult to believe that is the actual situation we're in. So, I don't agree on the actions that most direct/early players in this situation took, but they make sense -- they're logical. The US -- gain near-absolute freedom to act lawlessly and unilaterly around the world with impunity Russia -- try to establish yourself as a powerful nation once again, and don't let the US box you in Zelenskyy -- stay in office Europe -- ???

rzzzwilson 5y ago
> esp if you have an easy out? You seem to think that Ukraine "declaring neutrality" would actually change something in the current situation. I doubt Ukraine would "live happily ever after" after being occupied. Being neutral hasn't stopped invasions in the past. Belgium is one example of many.
celticninja 5y ago
How do they stay neutral when they are invaded? Do you think the invasion was because they wanted to join NATO? It is more likely that Putin is scared of them joining the EU than NATO. > I think Zelensky chose himself over his country I think he chose his country over himself. If he was a career politician he would have taken the offer of a US flight out of there and the country would probably fall to the Russians. If you think that would go well for the people of Ukraine then I have a bridge to sell you. Honestly if you cannot understand why a people would want to fight an agressor to remain free then perhaps you should go and live in Russia, that appears to be the norm over there. Kowtow to anyone stronger than you as long as you can have mcdonalds.
adriancr 5y ago
> The easy out for Ukraine was to just go neutral, like Austria. Russia wants both neutral status and demilitarization. That's to make it easy to invade and they would be fools to do so. Neutral status was de facto there, they couldn't join NATO on account of Crimea. (Joining NATO would mean no Russian invasion so they would be fools not to pursue that regardless...) Also, what Russia says it wants is irrelevant, judging by the fact this was planned out since November last year. Russia just wants to annex the whole of Ukraine and partition it as per plans Lukashenko presented, anything else they say is lies. I'd say stop being so naive / start double checking your assumptions. Some more things as I read: > Putin could have easily wiped Ukraine off the map How?, nukes?, Russia would be next to be wiped off the map, and the rest of us with it. Conventionally?, well, that's not working out too well now is it? > Is there another explanation for Ukraine's/Zelenskyy's behavior here Patriotism, courage?, you see your country invaded by Russia you stay and fight. If you meant demilitarizing, that would be stupid as Russia would have invaded anyway and it would have made things simpler as there would be no fighting back. Where's Putin right now btw?, hiding in a bunker? > I'm also curious why Europe supported this. Ukraine was already de facto neutral. What exactly did Europe support?, you wanted Europe to tell Zelensky to dismiss his army and let the Russians roll in? Or you mean military support right now? This is because of what Russia is doing in Ukraine and I'd say its not enough. NSFL: (parents and children dead taking their kids to daycare, hit by grad rocket artillery) https://old.reddit.com/r/ukraine/comments/t12lna/akhtyrka_ukraine_russian_invaders_attacked_a/ https://old.reddit.com/r/ukraine/comments/t12lna/akhtyrka_uk... NSFL: (6 year old dead due to shrapnel) https://apnews.com/article/russia-ukraine-europe-a8bb96288aaf70f9a7f70e9a4fac8160 https://apnews.com/article/russia-ukraine-europe-a8bb96288aa... And many more like the bombing of a maternity hospital, bombing people's homes, bombing people trying to evacuate and ignoring negotiated ceasefires... > Russia -- try to establish yourself as a powerful nation once again, and don't let the US box you in If anything, the war proved Russia is a paper tiger and would get obliterated without nukes. It also cut it off from the international market and destroyed its economy, if anything it's not logical for them, it's just old school imperialism and delusion from Putin. Nobody was threatening it with nukes.

rzzzwilson 5y ago

> esp if you have an easy out? You seem to think that Ukraine "declaring neutrality" would actually change something in the current situation. I doubt Ukraine would "live happily ever after" after being occupied. Being neutral hasn't stopped invasions in the past. Belgium is one example of many.

celticninja 5y ago

How do they stay neutral when they are invaded? Do you think the invasion was because they wanted to join NATO? It is more likely that Putin is scared of them joining the EU than NATO. > I think Zelensky chose himself over his country I think he chose his country over himself. If he was a career politician he would have taken the offer of a US flight out of there and the country would probably fall to the Russians. If you think that would go well for the people of Ukraine then I have a bridge to sell you. Honestly if you cannot understand why a people would want to fight an agressor to remain free then perhaps you should go and live in Russia, that appears to be the norm over there. Kowtow to anyone stronger than you as long as you can have mcdonalds.

adriancr 5y ago

> The easy out for Ukraine was to just go neutral, like Austria. Russia wants both neutral status and demilitarization. That's to make it easy to invade and they would be fools to do so. Neutral status was de facto there, they couldn't join NATO on account of Crimea. (Joining NATO would mean no Russian invasion so they would be fools not to pursue that regardless...) Also, what Russia says it wants is irrelevant, judging by the fact this was planned out since November last year. Russia just wants to annex the whole of Ukraine and partition it as per plans Lukashenko presented, anything else they say is lies. I'd say stop being so naive / start double checking your assumptions. Some more things as I read: > Putin could have easily wiped Ukraine off the map How?, nukes?, Russia would be next to be wiped off the map, and the rest of us with it. Conventionally?, well, that's not working out too well now is it? > Is there another explanation for Ukraine's/Zelenskyy's behavior here Patriotism, courage?, you see your country invaded by Russia you stay and fight. If you meant demilitarizing, that would be stupid as Russia would have invaded anyway and it would have made things simpler as there would be no fighting back. Where's Putin right now btw?, hiding in a bunker? > I'm also curious why Europe supported this. Ukraine was already de facto neutral. What exactly did Europe support?, you wanted Europe to tell Zelensky to dismiss his army and let the Russians roll in? Or you mean military support right now? This is because of what Russia is doing in Ukraine and I'd say its not enough. NSFL: (parents and children dead taking their kids to daycare, hit by grad rocket artillery) https://old.reddit.com/r/ukraine/comments/t12lna/akhtyrka_ukraine_russian_invaders_attacked_a/ https://old.reddit.com/r/ukraine/comments/t12lna/akhtyrka_uk... NSFL: (6 year old dead due to shrapnel) https://apnews.com/article/russia-ukraine-europe-a8bb96288aaf70f9a7f70e9a4fac8160 https://apnews.com/article/russia-ukraine-europe-a8bb96288aa... And many more like the bombing of a maternity hospital, bombing people's homes, bombing people trying to evacuate and ignoring negotiated ceasefires... > Russia -- try to establish yourself as a powerful nation once again, and don't let the US box you in If anything, the war proved Russia is a paper tiger and would get obliterated without nukes. It also cut it off from the international market and destroyed its economy, if anything it's not logical for them, it's just old school imperialism and delusion from Putin. Nobody was threatening it with nukes.