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> He drew some surprising conclusions: the writers were less likely to carry on, whereas some of the greatest artists, Michelangelo, Titian [etc.], became, if a

by bambax 5y ago

> He drew some surprising conclusions: the writers were less likely to carry on, whereas some of the greatest artists, Michelangelo, Titian [etc.], became, if anything, more productive and liberated from convention as they went into old age This seems pretty arbitrary and anecdotal, and there are famous counterexamples. In French, Saint-Simon (the memorialist, not the economist) wrote his masterpiece of over 3 million words between age 65 and 75, in the middle of the 18th century (he died at 80). Victor Hugo, born in 1802, published four enormous novels after the age of 60 (Les Misérables, 1862; Les Travailleurs de la Mer, 1866; L'Homme qui rit, 1869; Quatrevingt-treize, 1874), and his most famous poetry books after age 54 (Les Contemplations, 1856; La Légende des siècles, 1859). Chateaubriand finished writing his masterpiece, his memoirs, aged 73. I could go on.

Aidevah 5y ago
While like you, I am not convinced that writers tend to end their careers earlier than painters (the three greatest living American novelists, DeLillo, Pynchon and McCarthy, all well in their 80s, have all published relatively recently), I have to say that Chateaubriand represents a special case. A large portion of his memoir was written well before his death and he relied on notes which he wrote in his youth. From Rosen's "Romantic poets, critics, and other madmen": >Chateaubriand alone of these writers was able to continue to produce work in later years comparable to his first masterpieces. His case is exemplary: what he did was to continue to publish and develop his earliest work. He returned from America aged twenty-four carrying an enormous manuscript (he claimed improbably that it later saved his life during the wars against the young revolutionary government of France by stopping a bullet). He extracted one book after another from this, starting with the Essay on Revolutions, The Genius of Christianity, and The Voyage to America. >The late autobiographical work, however, retains much of his youthful power: considerable portions had been written much earlier, and the title. Memoirs from Beyond the Tomb, is revealing—Chateaubriand wrote as if already dead and he had less need to compromise.
bambax 5y ago
After reading the actual text of the conference by Kenneth Mackenzie Clark (linked to in a comment below), it turns out that the author doesn't discuss writers in general, but specifically poets, and that he thinks poets stop writing poetry (or, sometimes, good poetry) in old age because poetry requires "fire", which doesn't burn as bright then. I'm not sure where the OP got the idea of "writers less likely to carry on" but it's not in the text of the conference.
mariodiana 5y ago
Michelangelo never married. What about the others? There was a study done, years and years ago, that I remember reading about that suggested men are most productive, creatively — at the cutting edge in demanding fields — before they start families. The suggestion was that the demands of marriage and family life interfere with creativity. Put another way, the lone genius stops being one when he's no longer lone.
boomboomsubban 5y ago
>This seems pretty arbitrary and anecdotal, and there are famous counterexamples It's summing up a rather lengthy lecture in one sentence, and it fully admits to exceptions. The lecture's theme seems to be that an artist usually loves to work in their medium, while a writer rarely finds the same joy in the pen/typewriter. https://www.amacad.org/publication/artist-grows-old https://www.amacad.org/publication/artist-grows-old
- bambax 5y ago
  Ah thank you, I couldn't immediately find the text of the lecture. Will read it now! I think it's true that many writers hate writing, and that's not the same with performers. I said as much here, about a year ago https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27114757 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27114757 Curious to see if the lecture offers some kind of explanation.
Archelaos 5y ago
Just two other examples: Goethe: West–Eastern Diwan (age 70), Wilhelm Meister's Journeyman Years (age 72) Marienbad Elegy (age 73). Thomas Mann: Doctor Faustus (age 72) I have randomly picked a few people from the list of Nobel Prize Laureates in Literature[1] who have made it to old age, and most of them seem to have been quite productive even then. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Nobel_laureates_in_Literature https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Nobel_laureates_in_Lit...
- malloryerik 5y ago
  Aeschylus wrote The Oresteia when he was 65. I believe Sophocles wrote Oedipus the King at age 68, and continued writing through Electra (probably) and Philoctetes (which took first prize in Athens) in his mid- to late-80s.

by bambax 5y ago

Aidevah 5y ago

While like you, I am not convinced that writers tend to end their careers earlier than painters (the three greatest living American novelists, DeLillo, Pynchon and McCarthy, all well in their 80s, have all published relatively recently), I have to say that Chateaubriand represents a special case. A large portion of his memoir was written well before his death and he relied on notes which he wrote in his youth. From Rosen's "Romantic poets, critics, and other madmen": >Chateaubriand alone of these writers was able to continue to produce work in later years comparable to his first masterpieces. His case is exemplary: what he did was to continue to publish and develop his earliest work. He returned from America aged twenty-four carrying an enormous manuscript (he claimed improbably that it later saved his life during the wars against the young revolutionary government of France by stopping a bullet). He extracted one book after another from this, starting with the Essay on Revolutions, The Genius of Christianity, and The Voyage to America. >The late autobiographical work, however, retains much of his youthful power: considerable portions had been written much earlier, and the title. Memoirs from Beyond the Tomb, is revealing—Chateaubriand wrote as if already dead and he had less need to compromise.

bambax 5y ago

After reading the actual text of the conference by Kenneth Mackenzie Clark (linked to in a comment below), it turns out that the author doesn't discuss writers in general, but specifically poets, and that he thinks poets stop writing poetry (or, sometimes, good poetry) in old age because poetry requires "fire", which doesn't burn as bright then. I'm not sure where the OP got the idea of "writers less likely to carry on" but it's not in the text of the conference.

mariodiana 5y ago

Michelangelo never married. What about the others? There was a study done, years and years ago, that I remember reading about that suggested men are most productive, creatively — at the cutting edge in demanding fields — before they start families. The suggestion was that the demands of marriage and family life interfere with creativity. Put another way, the lone genius stops being one when he's no longer lone.

boomboomsubban 5y ago

>This seems pretty arbitrary and anecdotal, and there are famous counterexamples It's summing up a rather lengthy lecture in one sentence, and it fully admits to exceptions. The lecture's theme seems to be that an artist usually loves to work in their medium, while a writer rarely finds the same joy in the pen/typewriter. https://www.amacad.org/publication/artist-grows-old https://www.amacad.org/publication/artist-grows-old

bambax 5y ago
Ah thank you, I couldn't immediately find the text of the lecture. Will read it now! I think it's true that many writers hate writing, and that's not the same with performers. I said as much here, about a year ago https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27114757 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27114757 Curious to see if the lecture offers some kind of explanation.

Archelaos 5y ago

Just two other examples: Goethe: West–Eastern Diwan (age 70), Wilhelm Meister's Journeyman Years (age 72) Marienbad Elegy (age 73). Thomas Mann: Doctor Faustus (age 72) I have randomly picked a few people from the list of Nobel Prize Laureates in Literature[1] who have made it to old age, and most of them seem to have been quite productive even then. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Nobel_laureates_in_Literature https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Nobel_laureates_in_Lit...

malloryerik 5y ago
Aeschylus wrote The Oresteia when he was 65. I believe Sophocles wrote Oedipus the King at age 68, and continued writing through Electra (probably) and Philoctetes (which took first prize in Athens) in his mid- to late-80s.