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I feel like there's a common thread in many conversations I have these days, which can be described well by "We've tried to domesticate genius, and lost it." It

I feel like there's a common thread in many conversations I have these days, which can be described well by "We've tried to domesticate genius, and lost it." It's the parents that push their kids to be measurably good at all the things they've been told geniuses are good at. It's the students who go to university because that's how they're told they will get good jobs, and not due to a thirst for learning. It's the managers that try to create a workplace that has some superificial resemblance to another place that has turned out great work, and then expect that they've flipped on the genius switch. We're so used to measuring and planning everything, that when we decide we want 'genius' all we think to do is measure what we can in other instances, and force that to happen. I suspect it's very hard for a lot of people to believe that (a) it takes all kinds of un-measured hard work, (b) there are so many more aspects than they can think of that go into creating genius, and (c) there's a measure of luck to it and they can't control everything. Back to the topic of the article though, I see parents who believe there is a causal link from Good School --> 'Good Job', and see a link to Good School from all these things 'geniuses have been known to do.'

kenjackson 15y ago
With everything you said -- isn't that the way you're supposed to do things? Seriously. You see what others do who are successful and you try to understand what it is and replicate it and improve on it. It's not about domesticating genius, but its about understanding and application. And last time I checked the ONLY scientific method we have for understanding something is measurement.
- patrickyeon 15y ago
  Basically, applying the scientific method here would be a great idea, but keep in mind that correlation != causation. Just because many geniuses you've heard of could pick up a difficult instrument and learn it quickly, it does not follow that learning to play an instrument is a necessary step towards geniushood. The idea that I latched on to "We've tried to domesticate genius, and lost it" suggests that parents are shaping kids that exhibit secondary characteristics of genius, but we've failed to nurture the spark that pushes someone to do amazing things. I offer the hypothesis that an important factor towards developing very high talent in a field is a love for it and an opportunity to explore within it, make mistakes, do "some costructive play." If this is true, it seems quite possible to me that training someone to exhibit all kinds of secondary signs of genius (that they may well enjoy, but not truly love) can take up time and energy that they might otherwise dedicate to developing their true genius. Sometimes genius isn't where you expect it. What if the next Jim Hensons are currently practicing tuba between lacrosse games and advanced calculus courses, admonished whenever they "waste their time playing" and painting their WarHammer models?
  - ScottBurson 15y ago
    I think you nailed it. In a world in which so much routine work has been and continues to be automated, originality is becoming more and more essential for success. But originality can't be taught -- it has to be nurtured. Yes, in order to do original work, you need mastery of a medium, whether that be lacrosse, tuba, or mathematics (to borrow your examples). But people think that the mastery is the whole point, when it's actually just the toolchest. Without originality to guide the use of those tools, you're just a mechanic -- and we don't need many mechanics anymore.
    - kenjackson 15y ago
      Originality really isn't the right word. I've been original my whole life -- almost everyone has by definition. I can do a lot of original dumb stuff. I think what you want is closer to ingenuity. And this is why mastery is important. And its also why mastery of certain things is important. I was one of the most original (and skilled) Gorf players of my day -- no one really cares. Had I been equally skilled at chess I probably could have gotten into Harvard on that alone. Both relatively equally non-transferrable skills.
      - ScottBurson 15y ago
        Just happened across a blog post on this topic, more or less: http://www.forbes.com/sites/michaelellsberg/2011/07/22/life-lessons-from-a-fire-breathing-stilt-walking-billionaire/ http://www.forbes.com/sites/michaelellsberg/2011/07/22/life-...
chernevik 15y ago
Absolutely. But I also question the criteria of the hypercompetition, and the judges' valuation of the signals. Volunteer work in a Guatemalan day care center may indicate altruism and awareness, right up the moment when it becomes an aid, or a requirement, of Harvard admission. Likewise the school paper. Maybe the insistence on being "well-rounded" pushes kids outside a purely academic focus, and gets them exposed to things they might otherwise miss. But how much will a kid get from an experience without an interior interest? "Gotta go check the 'well-rounded' box." Likewise I wonder about the curriculum they have to hit. If they are doing so much homework, why aren't they more numerate, why aren't they more familiar with the underpinnings of our literature and history? Why isn't Harvard conducting interviews in foreign languages? We've made a grueling admissions process that measures compliance with a particular norm of social and political values, and tries to be "academically rigourous" without suggesting that particular topics are especially important or essential. And why, exactly, is Harvard so much more important than Brown, and Brown than Wesleyan? The education available at these cannot be so different as the quality of the social network established. Now networks are extraordinarily important, but are the Harvard grads _learning_ that much more after college? or is the difference in their positioning for various status competitions? It's hardly surprising that this process perpetuates the same status structure that determines its rewards and criteria. Those rewards and criteria are stated in vague but emphatic terms, which can only be judged subjectively. Is it any wonder that the process seems crazy? or that makes suspicious the very notion of "excellence" supposedly at its core?
- kenjackson 15y ago
  Absolutely. But I also question the criteria of the hypercompetition, and the judges' valuation of the signals. Volunteer work in a Guatemalan day care center may indicate altruism and awareness, right up the moment when it becomes an aid, or a requirement, of Harvard admission. Likewise the school paper. Maybe the insistence on being "well-rounded" pushes kids outside a purely academic focus, and gets them exposed to things they might otherwise miss. But how much will a kid get from an experience without an interior interest? "Gotta go check the 'well-rounded' box." But given there are a fixed number of slots at a place that a lot of people want to attend (which may not be the case forever, with online education) how else do you propose they judge the students? The idea they have is that they don't just want the 4.0/1600 SAT students. They want students who have interests and passions outside of the class. The person who wins the Westinghouse competition, or the IMO gold medalist, or the 17 year old NY Times best seller, or the kid who toured with the Marsalis' on sax. Sure all these things could be application padding w/o passion purely to get into Harvard, but how do you distinguish? How do you select for passion/competence, but not look at their actual accomplishments? What's a better way to do this? You could ask them to code on the whiteboard. :-)

kenjackson 15y ago

With everything you said -- isn't that the way you're supposed to do things? Seriously. You see what others do who are successful and you try to understand what it is and replicate it and improve on it. It's not about domesticating genius, but its about understanding and application. And last time I checked the ONLY scientific method we have for understanding something is measurement.

patrickyeon 15y ago
Basically, applying the scientific method here would be a great idea, but keep in mind that correlation != causation. Just because many geniuses you've heard of could pick up a difficult instrument and learn it quickly, it does not follow that learning to play an instrument is a necessary step towards geniushood. The idea that I latched on to "We've tried to domesticate genius, and lost it" suggests that parents are shaping kids that exhibit secondary characteristics of genius, but we've failed to nurture the spark that pushes someone to do amazing things. I offer the hypothesis that an important factor towards developing very high talent in a field is a love for it and an opportunity to explore within it, make mistakes, do "some costructive play." If this is true, it seems quite possible to me that training someone to exhibit all kinds of secondary signs of genius (that they may well enjoy, but not truly love) can take up time and energy that they might otherwise dedicate to developing their true genius. Sometimes genius isn't where you expect it. What if the next Jim Hensons are currently practicing tuba between lacrosse games and advanced calculus courses, admonished whenever they "waste their time playing" and painting their WarHammer models?
- ScottBurson 15y ago
  I think you nailed it. In a world in which so much routine work has been and continues to be automated, originality is becoming more and more essential for success. But originality can't be taught -- it has to be nurtured. Yes, in order to do original work, you need mastery of a medium, whether that be lacrosse, tuba, or mathematics (to borrow your examples). But people think that the mastery is the whole point, when it's actually just the toolchest. Without originality to guide the use of those tools, you're just a mechanic -- and we don't need many mechanics anymore.
  - kenjackson 15y ago
    Originality really isn't the right word. I've been original my whole life -- almost everyone has by definition. I can do a lot of original dumb stuff. I think what you want is closer to ingenuity. And this is why mastery is important. And its also why mastery of certain things is important. I was one of the most original (and skilled) Gorf players of my day -- no one really cares. Had I been equally skilled at chess I probably could have gotten into Harvard on that alone. Both relatively equally non-transferrable skills.
    - ScottBurson 15y ago
      Just happened across a blog post on this topic, more or less: http://www.forbes.com/sites/michaelellsberg/2011/07/22/life-lessons-from-a-fire-breathing-stilt-walking-billionaire/ http://www.forbes.com/sites/michaelellsberg/2011/07/22/life-...

chernevik 15y ago

Absolutely. But I also question the criteria of the hypercompetition, and the judges' valuation of the signals. Volunteer work in a Guatemalan day care center may indicate altruism and awareness, right up the moment when it becomes an aid, or a requirement, of Harvard admission. Likewise the school paper. Maybe the insistence on being "well-rounded" pushes kids outside a purely academic focus, and gets them exposed to things they might otherwise miss. But how much will a kid get from an experience without an interior interest? "Gotta go check the 'well-rounded' box." Likewise I wonder about the curriculum they have to hit. If they are doing so much homework, why aren't they more numerate, why aren't they more familiar with the underpinnings of our literature and history? Why isn't Harvard conducting interviews in foreign languages? We've made a grueling admissions process that measures compliance with a particular norm of social and political values, and tries to be "academically rigourous" without suggesting that particular topics are especially important or essential. And why, exactly, is Harvard so much more important than Brown, and Brown than Wesleyan? The education available at these cannot be so different as the quality of the social network established. Now networks are extraordinarily important, but are the Harvard grads _learning_ that much more after college? or is the difference in their positioning for various status competitions? It's hardly surprising that this process perpetuates the same status structure that determines its rewards and criteria. Those rewards and criteria are stated in vague but emphatic terms, which can only be judged subjectively. Is it any wonder that the process seems crazy? or that makes suspicious the very notion of "excellence" supposedly at its core?

kenjackson 15y ago
Absolutely. But I also question the criteria of the hypercompetition, and the judges' valuation of the signals. Volunteer work in a Guatemalan day care center may indicate altruism and awareness, right up the moment when it becomes an aid, or a requirement, of Harvard admission. Likewise the school paper. Maybe the insistence on being "well-rounded" pushes kids outside a purely academic focus, and gets them exposed to things they might otherwise miss. But how much will a kid get from an experience without an interior interest? "Gotta go check the 'well-rounded' box." But given there are a fixed number of slots at a place that a lot of people want to attend (which may not be the case forever, with online education) how else do you propose they judge the students? The idea they have is that they don't just want the 4.0/1600 SAT students. They want students who have interests and passions outside of the class. The person who wins the Westinghouse competition, or the IMO gold medalist, or the 17 year old NY Times best seller, or the kid who toured with the Marsalis' on sax. Sure all these things could be application padding w/o passion purely to get into Harvard, but how do you distinguish? How do you select for passion/competence, but not look at their actual accomplishments? What's a better way to do this? You could ask them to code on the whiteboard. :-)