5 ms·

The day that I install any amazon sidewalk enabled device in my home is the day I hang up my hat and resign in shame, as a network engineer who's been building

The day that I install any amazon sidewalk enabled device in my home is the day I hang up my hat and resign in shame, as a network engineer who's been building internet infrastructure since 1999. It's so gross and wrong. amazon doesn't get a free ride on my residential internet service or arbitrary use of radio spectrum in my home. note: I also have no smart doorbells, cloud connected security cameras, internet enabled lightbulbs, etc. They're nothing but riddled with bugs, incompatibilities, security holes, disgusting configuration options, obsolescence in less than a few years, etc. just you wait until manufacturers of "internet of shit" things go really evil, and integrate low cost LTE radios into them with their own billing/centralized management/VPN system. it's already been proven that giving your smart tv the wifi password is a bad idea, because it'll just retrieve and display ads, and/or submit all your usage history to its manufacturer for resale to unknown 3rd parties. Now what if random items of electrical consumer technology phone home whether you want them to or not...

implements 5y ago
> note: I also have no smart doorbells, cloud connected security cameras, ... If you want a CCTV camera you can still get 'old school' commercial grade IP cameras from eBay. Mercifully free of cloud attachment, but with ftp, email and http notification. Probably will have dynamic DNS, but that can be useful.
samatman 5y ago
It's a reasonable way to live your life, but it's worth noting that most WiFi smart bulbs and switches can be liberated with a not-unreasonable amount of effort: https://blog.fosketts.net/2020/05/29/liberate-wi-fi-smart-bulbs-and-switches-with-tasmota/ https://blog.fosketts.net/2020/05/29/liberate-wi-fi-smart-bu... Personally I benefit from being able to control the type of light and change it over the course of the day, and I've found a couple of uses for automatic switches which improve my life as well. Point being, these things at least can be liberated from the IoT, where we all know what the S stands for.
- neop1x 5y ago
  Zigbee devices can be used in a closed mesh network, without an internet connection or any proprietary cloud or subscription. One needs a USB coordinator dongle [1], a small computer like raspberry pi, zigbee2mqtt [2] & Home Assistant [3]. It works perfectly. Devices implement various standardized "profiles" documented in an open standard ZCL/dotdot and a lot of devices from different manufacturers work right out of the box. [1] https://sonoff.tech/product/diy-smart-switch/sonoff-dongle-plus/ https://sonoff.tech/product/diy-smart-switch/sonoff-dongle-p... [2] https://www.zigbee2mqtt.io/ https://www.zigbee2mqtt.io/ [3] https://www.home-assistant.io/ https://www.home-assistant.io/
AviationAtom 5y ago
I think the cable companies really ushered it in, with their dual SSID setup. I refused to use their gear for a host of reasons, this being one of them.
- jaywalk 5y ago
  To be fair, the "public" SSID on cable company wireless routers is using a separate DOCSIS service flow, so it's not actually using your Internet connection like Amazon Sidewalk would be.
  - walrus01 5y ago
    It's still using the same wifi channel and TDD/CSMA half duplex rf/air media contention as your home wifi service, in the typical cable operator all-in-one DOCSIS/router/wifi device. Meaning that if you have any appreciable portion of traffic on the public SSID it can impact your own speeds/jitter/latency/service. It's not like these devices have indepenent secondary 2.4/5.x GHz 802.11ac/ax radios for the public SSID operating in their own separate 20/40/80 MHz channels.
    - jaywalk 5y ago
      This is true, although the public hotspot speeds are usually fairly limited so it shouldn't impact your private network too much. I use my own equipment for a whole host of reasons, but I also appreciate having WiFi I can connect to more often than not without having to drain my phone's battery using it as a hotspot.
      - heavyset_go 5y ago
        Extra WiFi traffic, even if not coming from your AP or devices, will still interfere with your own AP and devices for the reasons walrus01 pointed out, that WiFi is half duplex and needs to share the same RF space as every other WiFi device nearby.
        5y ago
kristiandupont 5y ago
I have a similar feeling and I am quite pessimistic about the future in this regard. Currently, I have been able to avoid it pretty well, but appliances break and need replacing, and I suspect there will be a day where I cannot find a washing machine that isn't "smart", much less a car!
- fsflover 5y ago
  You should support organizations fighting for the user freedom, e.g., https://fsf.org https://fsf.org.
  - lkxijlewlf 5y ago
    Agreed. But damn, that's a short list.
    - fsflover 5y ago
      https://edri.org https://edri.org, https://eff.org https://eff.org. There are more.
- lkxijlewlf 5y ago
  >... and I suspect there will be a day where I cannot find a washing machine that isn't "smart"... What's worse is you'll have to have a monthly subscription to their service or it won't work. I bet there are people just salivating at the thought of all that MRR. Our future is one in which we don't own a damn thing. We're all renters.
  - robotguy 5y ago
    This is one of the topics of Cory Doctorow's sci-fi book "Unauthorized Bread."
  - walrus01 5y ago
    I am already receiving targeted ads for what appears to be a roomba subscription
Schroedingersat 5y ago
> just you wait until manufacturers of "internet of shit" things go really evil, and integrate low cost LTE radios into them with their own billing/centralized management/VPN system. Why bother? They'll iust use your neighbor's wifi (at extra rf pollution cost to your house) or the surveillance system on the streetlamp outside being paid for by your tax money or remove the opt out option from 'your' phone
- grey_earthling 5y ago
  > or remove the opt out option from 'your' phone This is why we need viable open source phone OSes. Refuse to “just install the app”!
  - fsflover 5y ago
    It's impossible to install fully FLOSS OS on a typical phone, due the proprietary hardware drivers. The latter force you to buy new hardware every few years. Consider a GNU/Linux phone, Librem 5 or Pinephone, instead.
    - Schroedingersat 5y ago
      Doesn't help if your tv is using your neighbor's router to phone home and download ads
hackernewds 5y ago
Eye opening that your vacuum cleaner or smart bulb wants you to directly embed your WiFi password for set up. Not to mention, usually the cheapest ones are subsidized by, at best sales of your data, and at worst espionage and security backdoors.
- webmobdev 5y ago
  After my mom was bed ridden for some time, I reluctantly installed some Alexa enabled smart bulbs and switches, so that my mom could operate it by voice commands. But I made sure that I created a separate wifi guest network with low bandwidth to ensure Alexa / smart appliances don't waste the bandwidth unnecessarily (even if they leak the wifi password).
daniel-cussen 5y ago
> note: I also have no smart doorbells, cloud connected security cameras, internet enabled lightbulbs, etc. They're nothing but riddled with bugs, incompatibilities, security holes, disgusting configuration options, obsolescence in less than a few years, etc. Yeah how dare they call them smart when they're such shitty products. Totally inferior quality. EDIT: Recently I saw a lightbulb that cost $20, you know why? Better light. That's it. You know what I'd love to buy these days? Jammers for inside the home, just to make sure there is no incidental communication.

implements 5y ago

> note: I also have no smart doorbells, cloud connected security cameras, ... If you want a CCTV camera you can still get 'old school' commercial grade IP cameras from eBay. Mercifully free of cloud attachment, but with ftp, email and http notification. Probably will have dynamic DNS, but that can be useful.

samatman 5y ago

It's a reasonable way to live your life, but it's worth noting that most WiFi smart bulbs and switches can be liberated with a not-unreasonable amount of effort: https://blog.fosketts.net/2020/05/29/liberate-wi-fi-smart-bulbs-and-switches-with-tasmota/ https://blog.fosketts.net/2020/05/29/liberate-wi-fi-smart-bu... Personally I benefit from being able to control the type of light and change it over the course of the day, and I've found a couple of uses for automatic switches which improve my life as well. Point being, these things at least can be liberated from the IoT, where we all know what the S stands for.

neop1x 5y ago
Zigbee devices can be used in a closed mesh network, without an internet connection or any proprietary cloud or subscription. One needs a USB coordinator dongle [1], a small computer like raspberry pi, zigbee2mqtt [2] & Home Assistant [3]. It works perfectly. Devices implement various standardized "profiles" documented in an open standard ZCL/dotdot and a lot of devices from different manufacturers work right out of the box. [1] https://sonoff.tech/product/diy-smart-switch/sonoff-dongle-plus/ https://sonoff.tech/product/diy-smart-switch/sonoff-dongle-p... [2] https://www.zigbee2mqtt.io/ https://www.zigbee2mqtt.io/ [3] https://www.home-assistant.io/ https://www.home-assistant.io/

AviationAtom 5y ago

I think the cable companies really ushered it in, with their dual SSID setup. I refused to use their gear for a host of reasons, this being one of them.

jaywalk 5y ago
To be fair, the "public" SSID on cable company wireless routers is using a separate DOCSIS service flow, so it's not actually using your Internet connection like Amazon Sidewalk would be.
- walrus01 5y ago
  It's still using the same wifi channel and TDD/CSMA half duplex rf/air media contention as your home wifi service, in the typical cable operator all-in-one DOCSIS/router/wifi device. Meaning that if you have any appreciable portion of traffic on the public SSID it can impact your own speeds/jitter/latency/service. It's not like these devices have indepenent secondary 2.4/5.x GHz 802.11ac/ax radios for the public SSID operating in their own separate 20/40/80 MHz channels.
  - jaywalk 5y ago
    This is true, although the public hotspot speeds are usually fairly limited so it shouldn't impact your private network too much. I use my own equipment for a whole host of reasons, but I also appreciate having WiFi I can connect to more often than not without having to drain my phone's battery using it as a hotspot.
    - heavyset_go 5y ago
      Extra WiFi traffic, even if not coming from your AP or devices, will still interfere with your own AP and devices for the reasons walrus01 pointed out, that WiFi is half duplex and needs to share the same RF space as every other WiFi device nearby.
      - 5y ago

kristiandupont 5y ago

I have a similar feeling and I am quite pessimistic about the future in this regard. Currently, I have been able to avoid it pretty well, but appliances break and need replacing, and I suspect there will be a day where I cannot find a washing machine that isn't "smart", much less a car!

fsflover 5y ago
You should support organizations fighting for the user freedom, e.g., https://fsf.org https://fsf.org.
- lkxijlewlf 5y ago
  Agreed. But damn, that's a short list.
  - fsflover 5y ago
    https://edri.org https://edri.org, https://eff.org https://eff.org. There are more.
lkxijlewlf 5y ago
>... and I suspect there will be a day where I cannot find a washing machine that isn't "smart"... What's worse is you'll have to have a monthly subscription to their service or it won't work. I bet there are people just salivating at the thought of all that MRR. Our future is one in which we don't own a damn thing. We're all renters.
- robotguy 5y ago
  This is one of the topics of Cory Doctorow's sci-fi book "Unauthorized Bread."
- walrus01 5y ago
  I am already receiving targeted ads for what appears to be a roomba subscription

Schroedingersat 5y ago

> just you wait until manufacturers of "internet of shit" things go really evil, and integrate low cost LTE radios into them with their own billing/centralized management/VPN system. Why bother? They'll iust use your neighbor's wifi (at extra rf pollution cost to your house) or the surveillance system on the streetlamp outside being paid for by your tax money or remove the opt out option from 'your' phone

grey_earthling 5y ago
> or remove the opt out option from 'your' phone This is why we need viable open source phone OSes. Refuse to “just install the app”!
- fsflover 5y ago
  It's impossible to install fully FLOSS OS on a typical phone, due the proprietary hardware drivers. The latter force you to buy new hardware every few years. Consider a GNU/Linux phone, Librem 5 or Pinephone, instead.
  - Schroedingersat 5y ago
    Doesn't help if your tv is using your neighbor's router to phone home and download ads

hackernewds 5y ago

Eye opening that your vacuum cleaner or smart bulb wants you to directly embed your WiFi password for set up. Not to mention, usually the cheapest ones are subsidized by, at best sales of your data, and at worst espionage and security backdoors.

webmobdev 5y ago
After my mom was bed ridden for some time, I reluctantly installed some Alexa enabled smart bulbs and switches, so that my mom could operate it by voice commands. But I made sure that I created a separate wifi guest network with low bandwidth to ensure Alexa / smart appliances don't waste the bandwidth unnecessarily (even if they leak the wifi password).

daniel-cussen 5y ago

> note: I also have no smart doorbells, cloud connected security cameras, internet enabled lightbulbs, etc. They're nothing but riddled with bugs, incompatibilities, security holes, disgusting configuration options, obsolescence in less than a few years, etc. Yeah how dare they call them smart when they're such shitty products. Totally inferior quality. EDIT: Recently I saw a lightbulb that cost $20, you know why? Better light. That's it. You know what I'd love to buy these days? Jammers for inside the home, just to make sure there is no incidental communication.