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The CPUSA? You've got to be kidding me.

by topaz0 5y ago

native_samples 5y ago
[flagged]
- Fnoord 5y ago
  > So the idea that society doesn't have a problem with communist extremism is unfortunately not quite accurate. It's still out there. It doesn't seem like communist extremism is the problem we are dealing with today. Unless you'd like to argue Putin's GRU lackeys are communists (which they're not, but either were and are nationalists). What you are doing here is essentially a whataboutism. What about the COMMUNIST extremists?! Yeah, well, what about them? They're irrelevant in the current playing field. The danger is coming from the right: alt-right. But either way, we can just call all of them extremists. Just don't pretend its 50/50 extreme left/right cause that's not the world we are living in. Not anymore, anyway.
  - native_samples 5y ago
    How are they irrelevant? Maybe it feels that way in the USA but the UK just went through a period of time where the government was officially and formally manipulating the behaviour of the population on the say-so of an actual communist. That seems pretty damn relevant. You also need to think a bit about this - why wasn't this extremist fired from her position? Well, not surprisingly, it's because a lot of her fellow academics are fellow travellers, as was often made clear by many of their comments. They aren't literally members of the communist party, but they are certainly sympathetic to that way of thinking. I've talked to them directly, the things they come out with are astonishing. Meanwhile, nobody even remotely right wing has had any influence at all, especially not in recent years. The libertarian wing of the Conservative party, such that it is, was reduced to constantly voting against the government, which always failed because they were supported by Labour. The "opposition" primarily "opposed" the government by demanding it do whatever it was doing, but faster and harder.
    - Talanes 5y ago
      You have to actually prove someone is an extremist beyond Communist Party membership. This isn't the 80's, the accepted argument isn't that one proceeds from the other anymore. It's rare that the same organization retains extremist character for generations, I'd expect modern extreme leftists to found new organizations, not join stodgy old Communist Parties.
      - native_samples 5y ago
        This is ridiculous. It's like saying membership of a Nazi party wouldn't imply extremism. Of course being a card-carrying communist is an extreme position. Communists around the world have repeatedly established horrific dictatorships that murdered their own people in vast numbers, usually accompanied with mass manipulation of the population through propaganda. If a behavioural psychologist of all people thinks that's the type of government she wants to have, it is de facto proof of extremism, and says nothing good about the people around her who say nothing about it. Consider how it'd look if she was a member of a Nazi Party. Nobody would accept that. There's no difference.
        Talanes 5y ago
        Believe whatever you want, but that's just not where the shared cultural assumption is anymore. It carries the same weight to someone born after the fall of the USSR as asserting someone must be royalty because of their purple jacket. Convincing people requires that you work forward from the assumptions they hold toward your views. I'm not sure what asserting that other people actually do hold your assumptions when they keep telling you they don't accomplishes.
        native_samples 5y ago
        You're asserting that the "shared cultural assumptions" have changed, and I'm asserting: 1. No they haven't. Lots of people found Michie's associations unacceptable and astonishing. 2. Anyone who does think that communism is not any longer an extreme position, is simply not well informed. Communism itself hasn't changed. Go look at the state of Xinjiang to see this. It's supposedly full of concentration camps.
  - FeepingCreature 5y ago
    (The alt-right is also irrelevant in the current playing field.)
    - Fnoord 5y ago
      Wishful thinking. The only people who are supporting Putin in The Netherlands, is the alt-right FvD and PVV. We had an alt-right president in USA, who tried to undermine NATO. Finally, it -along with nationalism- is on the rise in general throughout Europe as well as the world, including during the COVID pandemic.
- inopinatus 5y ago
  Sorry, your comment doesn’t quite have enough Red Menace hysteria. Could you mind dialling it up a little? Ideally, extrapolating from zero people, since asserting “society has a problem” from the political leanings of exactly one person seems almost like rigourous thinking. You’ve already nailed the misrepresentation of the composition and purpose of an advisory body, so you can leave that part alone; the overwrought hyperbole there is already evident after a cursory check of what SAGE is.

The CPUSA? You've got to be kidding me.

by topaz0 5y ago

The CPUSA? You've got to be kidding me.

native_samples 5y ago

[flagged]

Fnoord 5y ago
> So the idea that society doesn't have a problem with communist extremism is unfortunately not quite accurate. It's still out there. It doesn't seem like communist extremism is the problem we are dealing with today. Unless you'd like to argue Putin's GRU lackeys are communists (which they're not, but either were and are nationalists). What you are doing here is essentially a whataboutism. What about the COMMUNIST extremists?! Yeah, well, what about them? They're irrelevant in the current playing field. The danger is coming from the right: alt-right. But either way, we can just call all of them extremists. Just don't pretend its 50/50 extreme left/right cause that's not the world we are living in. Not anymore, anyway.
- native_samples 5y ago
  How are they irrelevant? Maybe it feels that way in the USA but the UK just went through a period of time where the government was officially and formally manipulating the behaviour of the population on the say-so of an actual communist. That seems pretty damn relevant. You also need to think a bit about this - why wasn't this extremist fired from her position? Well, not surprisingly, it's because a lot of her fellow academics are fellow travellers, as was often made clear by many of their comments. They aren't literally members of the communist party, but they are certainly sympathetic to that way of thinking. I've talked to them directly, the things they come out with are astonishing. Meanwhile, nobody even remotely right wing has had any influence at all, especially not in recent years. The libertarian wing of the Conservative party, such that it is, was reduced to constantly voting against the government, which always failed because they were supported by Labour. The "opposition" primarily "opposed" the government by demanding it do whatever it was doing, but faster and harder.
  - Talanes 5y ago
    You have to actually prove someone is an extremist beyond Communist Party membership. This isn't the 80's, the accepted argument isn't that one proceeds from the other anymore. It's rare that the same organization retains extremist character for generations, I'd expect modern extreme leftists to found new organizations, not join stodgy old Communist Parties.
    - native_samples 5y ago
      This is ridiculous. It's like saying membership of a Nazi party wouldn't imply extremism. Of course being a card-carrying communist is an extreme position. Communists around the world have repeatedly established horrific dictatorships that murdered their own people in vast numbers, usually accompanied with mass manipulation of the population through propaganda. If a behavioural psychologist of all people thinks that's the type of government she wants to have, it is de facto proof of extremism, and says nothing good about the people around her who say nothing about it. Consider how it'd look if she was a member of a Nazi Party. Nobody would accept that. There's no difference.
      - Talanes 5y ago
        Believe whatever you want, but that's just not where the shared cultural assumption is anymore. It carries the same weight to someone born after the fall of the USSR as asserting someone must be royalty because of their purple jacket. Convincing people requires that you work forward from the assumptions they hold toward your views. I'm not sure what asserting that other people actually do hold your assumptions when they keep telling you they don't accomplishes.
        native_samples 5y ago
        You're asserting that the "shared cultural assumptions" have changed, and I'm asserting: 1. No they haven't. Lots of people found Michie's associations unacceptable and astonishing. 2. Anyone who does think that communism is not any longer an extreme position, is simply not well informed. Communism itself hasn't changed. Go look at the state of Xinjiang to see this. It's supposedly full of concentration camps.
- FeepingCreature 5y ago
  (The alt-right is also irrelevant in the current playing field.)
  - Fnoord 5y ago
    Wishful thinking. The only people who are supporting Putin in The Netherlands, is the alt-right FvD and PVV. We had an alt-right president in USA, who tried to undermine NATO. Finally, it -along with nationalism- is on the rise in general throughout Europe as well as the world, including during the COVID pandemic.
inopinatus 5y ago
Sorry, your comment doesn’t quite have enough Red Menace hysteria. Could you mind dialling it up a little? Ideally, extrapolating from zero people, since asserting “society has a problem” from the political leanings of exactly one person seems almost like rigourous thinking. You’ve already nailed the misrepresentation of the composition and purpose of an advisory body, so you can leave that part alone; the overwrought hyperbole there is already evident after a cursory check of what SAGE is.