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Does the us have a lot of the countries in it’s circle of allies that are guilty of actions that require similar magnitude of response? Jumping ahead, my guess

Does the us have a lot of the countries in it’s circle of allies that are guilty of actions that require similar magnitude of response? Jumping ahead, my guess would be you are talking about Saudis? Or would it be Israel?

sudosysgen 5y ago
Yes, there are many. The Saudis, the Israelis, Turkey, the French and British (Libya), the US itself (Iraq, Vietnam), etc... Any single of these countries in the last 20 years have engaged in wars of aggression that have done more damage than Russia has and is likely to inflict on Ukraine, and thus deserve a similar magnitude of response.
- forum_ghost 5y ago
  Serbia and Kosovo(good): Ethnic minority suppressed by majority. Declares independence. Fights back. The US/NATO intervenes with military force against targets in Serbia, offers a path for accession into EU and NATO. Ukraine and Donbass(very bad): Ethnic minority suppressed by majority. Declares independence. Fights back. The EAEU/CSTO intervenes with military force against targets in Ukraine, offers a path for accession to EAEU/CSTO. I struggle to find the difference. How is Kosovo different from Donbass?
  - myko 5y ago
    Russia committed mass murder in the region (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holodomor https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holodomor) and sent Russians to take the land from historically Ukrainian regions. This all happened in the last 100 years. Slobodan Milošević was committing genocide against ethnic Albanians in Kosovo, protecting them was the right thing to do. Nothing similar is happening in Donbas. In Donbas Putin funded rebellion and backed it with his soldiers to create the tension that existed prior to the invasion. Very different situations in my opinion.
    - ailef 5y ago
      > Nothing similar is happening in Donbas. I guess the 3000 dead civilians just bombed themselves.
      - myko 5y ago
        The point is the Ukrainian government isn't the cause - the cause there is Putin as well, as he instigated the rebellion and is backing it. There is no movement for Donbas to join Russia beyond the one Russia itself created. And the reason the area has many folks who identify with Russia is due to mass killing of Ukrainians in the area and sending Russian families to take their land: https://www.britannica.com/event/Holodomor https://www.britannica.com/event/Holodomor Keep in mind, the 3000 dead you claim are, best as we can tell, fabricated by Putin. Please look into it further before repeating it. Here's a good rundown of Donbas: https://theconversation.com/putins-claims-that-ukraine-is-committing-genocide-are-baseless-but-not-unprecedented-177511 https://theconversation.com/putins-claims-that-ukraine-is-co...
        ailef 5y ago
        > Keep in mind, the 3000 dead you claim are, best as we can tell, fabricated by Putin. It's impossible to have a rational conversation about this topic when data about civilian casualties provided by the UN[1] is framed as fabricated by Putin without providing even the smallest piece of evidence. Also, the second article you linked to is arguing about the semantics of the word "genocide". If you want we can argue semantics, but even that seems quite difficult when since 2014 the neo-Nazi Azov battalion has been officially integrated into the Ukranian army. Of course, the article conveniently skips mentioning both the word "Azov" and "nazi". [1] https://ukraine.un.org/sites/default/files/2021-10/Conflict-related%20civilian%20casualties%20as%20of%2030%20September%202021%20%28rev%208%20Oct%202021%29%20EN.pdf https://ukraine.un.org/sites/default/files/2021-10/Conflict-...
        myko 5y ago
        The document you linked proves my point. Included in the number of civilian casualties are those killed by Russia shooting down a civilian airliner. Putin's fabricated claim is that Ukraine is responsible for these deaths - when in fact, he is, since he started the fighting - not Ukraine. Your earlier comment was "I guess the 3000 dead civilians just bombed themselves" which implied Ukraine killed them. It isn't semantics to suggest terms should be used correctly. People dying because Putin's ruthless ambition is not the same as genocide. Attempting to eradicate a people is. That is not something Ukraine was doing in Donbas - they were protecting their own territory, and yes civilians die in combat. Again I point out, combat started by Russia. Bringing this back to the earlier topic, this is different from Kosovo because Russia (Putin) are the ones causing the conflict and getting people killed. There was no ethnic cleansing that Putin stopped with his invasions into Ukraine.

sudosysgen 5y ago

Yes, there are many. The Saudis, the Israelis, Turkey, the French and British (Libya), the US itself (Iraq, Vietnam), etc... Any single of these countries in the last 20 years have engaged in wars of aggression that have done more damage than Russia has and is likely to inflict on Ukraine, and thus deserve a similar magnitude of response.

forum_ghost 5y ago
Serbia and Kosovo(good): Ethnic minority suppressed by majority. Declares independence. Fights back. The US/NATO intervenes with military force against targets in Serbia, offers a path for accession into EU and NATO. Ukraine and Donbass(very bad): Ethnic minority suppressed by majority. Declares independence. Fights back. The EAEU/CSTO intervenes with military force against targets in Ukraine, offers a path for accession to EAEU/CSTO. I struggle to find the difference. How is Kosovo different from Donbass?
- myko 5y ago
  Russia committed mass murder in the region (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holodomor https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holodomor) and sent Russians to take the land from historically Ukrainian regions. This all happened in the last 100 years. Slobodan Milošević was committing genocide against ethnic Albanians in Kosovo, protecting them was the right thing to do. Nothing similar is happening in Donbas. In Donbas Putin funded rebellion and backed it with his soldiers to create the tension that existed prior to the invasion. Very different situations in my opinion.
  - ailef 5y ago
    > Nothing similar is happening in Donbas. I guess the 3000 dead civilians just bombed themselves.
    - myko 5y ago
      The point is the Ukrainian government isn't the cause - the cause there is Putin as well, as he instigated the rebellion and is backing it. There is no movement for Donbas to join Russia beyond the one Russia itself created. And the reason the area has many folks who identify with Russia is due to mass killing of Ukrainians in the area and sending Russian families to take their land: https://www.britannica.com/event/Holodomor https://www.britannica.com/event/Holodomor Keep in mind, the 3000 dead you claim are, best as we can tell, fabricated by Putin. Please look into it further before repeating it. Here's a good rundown of Donbas: https://theconversation.com/putins-claims-that-ukraine-is-committing-genocide-are-baseless-but-not-unprecedented-177511 https://theconversation.com/putins-claims-that-ukraine-is-co...
      - ailef 5y ago
        > Keep in mind, the 3000 dead you claim are, best as we can tell, fabricated by Putin. It's impossible to have a rational conversation about this topic when data about civilian casualties provided by the UN[1] is framed as fabricated by Putin without providing even the smallest piece of evidence. Also, the second article you linked to is arguing about the semantics of the word "genocide". If you want we can argue semantics, but even that seems quite difficult when since 2014 the neo-Nazi Azov battalion has been officially integrated into the Ukranian army. Of course, the article conveniently skips mentioning both the word "Azov" and "nazi". [1] https://ukraine.un.org/sites/default/files/2021-10/Conflict-related%20civilian%20casualties%20as%20of%2030%20September%202021%20%28rev%208%20Oct%202021%29%20EN.pdf https://ukraine.un.org/sites/default/files/2021-10/Conflict-...
        myko 5y ago
        The document you linked proves my point. Included in the number of civilian casualties are those killed by Russia shooting down a civilian airliner. Putin's fabricated claim is that Ukraine is responsible for these deaths - when in fact, he is, since he started the fighting - not Ukraine. Your earlier comment was "I guess the 3000 dead civilians just bombed themselves" which implied Ukraine killed them. It isn't semantics to suggest terms should be used correctly. People dying because Putin's ruthless ambition is not the same as genocide. Attempting to eradicate a people is. That is not something Ukraine was doing in Donbas - they were protecting their own territory, and yes civilians die in combat. Again I point out, combat started by Russia. Bringing this back to the earlier topic, this is different from Kosovo because Russia (Putin) are the ones causing the conflict and getting people killed. There was no ethnic cleansing that Putin stopped with his invasions into Ukraine.