5 ms·
As an European, I find it cute how knowing "two or more" languages is sufficient for super status in North America. edit: It's also pretty amusing to see how t
by jarek 15y ago
As an European, I find it cute how knowing "two or more" languages is sufficient for super status in North America.
edit: It's also pretty amusing to see how touchy North Americans can be about this even on HN.
- sliverstorm 15y agoIt's a consequence of the social environment. In Europe, you are surrounded by different languages. In North America, you have English in the USA, English in Canada (with some French), and Spanish in Mexico. You do have clusters of Spanish/Chinese/Japanese/Hindi/etc on the West Coast of the USA, but except for the large Hispanic populations, almost every one of them speaks English too. In short, you can learn English and Spanish and be understood in 99.9999999% of North America. Learning any other language is largely a pursuit of fancy ("for fun" or for traveling abroad), unless you plan on moving out of the country.
- jarek 15y agoDon't get me wrong, I know why it's happening. But it's still amusing.
- deleted 15y ago[deleted]
- DanBC 15y ago> Learning any other language is largely a pursuit of fancy What happens if you want to sell to, or buy from, some other country? Is business squeezed into the bit that isn't "largely a ..."? I'm English. I speak no other languages, and it's something I'm a bit embarrassed by.
- sliverstorm 15y agoI'm not a businessman, but as I understand it English is pretty well established as the international language of business.
- DanBC 15y agoI'm not a businessman, but if I was trying to sell something I would want to reduce the work my customers have to do. I don't want to give them the choice of "The guy who doesn't speak $LANGUAGE" vs "Let's go with this guy who made an effort". (Let's not forget that customers are not always rational.)
- cbr 15y agoThere are about 500M people in north america, so 99.9999999% would be all but one half of one person. I suspect the true number of people who speak at least english or spanish is closer to 99%.
- PonyGumbo 15y agoI would suspect that the number of North Americans who speak a second language is comparable to the number of Europeans who speak non-European languages.
- maxxxxx 15y agoNice point! I come from Europe and you are right from my experience.
- jarek 15y agoThat depends on the definition of "non-European" languages. More Europeans than North Americans speak Brazilian, Argentinian, Mexican, and DRCongolese.
- pnathan 15y agoEr........ You mean Portuguese, Spanish, Spanish, and French? I believe the grandparent meant languages such as Japanese, Ethiopian, Thai, etc.
- jarek 15y agoYes. It doesn't make sense to dismiss Portuguese and Spanish as merely "European" languages for a German learner any more than it would to dismiss Spanish as a "U.S. Hispanic" language for an anglophone U.S. learner. The fact that they originated in Europe doesn't change the fact that they are also "non-European" languages.
- georgieporgie 15y agoThe fact that they originated in Europe doesn't change the fact that they are also "non-European" languages. Uh. Yes it does, and no they aren't.
- jarek 15y agoLinguistically, they are indeed European languages. Culturally, if you tell people in Argentina, the U.S., Macau and Nigeria that they are European because of a language they can speak, the label will lose all meaning.
- xiaoma 15y agoLearning a 2nd language as a monolingual adult (or teenager) isn't an easy thing. I can say this from personal experience. After thousands of hours, my language skills are still clearly non-native. If you know a 2nd language because it's been in your environment since childhood, then it's not so "super".
- pixcavator 15y ago"European"? Are you ashamed of your nationality?
- jarek 15y agoI used "European" for the same reason I used "North American" - the phenomenons described largely transcend borders of any particular country in either region.
- georgieporgie 15y agoknowing "two or more" languages I'm curious about your definition of 'knowing' in this instance. Fluent? Functional? Basic?
- jarek 15y agoThe NYT article used "fluency" - I'm fine with going with that.
- georgieporgie 15y agoSomething like 50% of Europeans identify as speaking more than one language. Since 'speaking' is vague, and fluency is hard, I think attaining fluency in multiple languages counts as reasonably 'super' even in Europe.
- jarek 15y agoPersonally I'd restrict "super" status to a lot less than 20% or 30% of the population - certainly that's what the NYT article is doing. Fluency in two languages is pretty much a requirement for any but the most basic professional positions in much of Europe, and I wouldn't want to start calling every middle-level manager or accounts person "super."
- georgieporgie 15y agoPersonally I'd restrict "super" status to a lot less than 20% or 30% of the population Exactly. 50% of the population may identify as 'speaking' two or more languages, but I seriously doubt more than 20% of them are fluent in two or more languages. There is an enormous difference between functional and fluent.
- jarek 15y agoAre we in violent agreement? If even 10% of European population are fluent in two languages, and we restrict "super" to something meaningfully specific, say top 2% of population, then fluency in two languages is not sufficient for super status in Europe.
- masterj 15y ago>As an European, I find it cute how knowing "two or more" languages is sufficient for super status in North America. >edit: It's also pretty amusing to see how touchy North Americans can be about this even on HN. That's because you're comparing two distinct things. There is no comparison between learning a language naturally or because it is spoken in your home environment and the brute force process of learning a language which you have no exposure to, and no real incentive (economic, social) to learn. The way you phrased it appears to be disdainful, "oh how precious", which noting the faults of the comparison, makes you come off as somewhat rude to a North American reader.