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> Russia will be a lesser partner to China. This is such an American/Anglo point of view, who can only think in terms of empire, master/slave, etc. As an Amer

> Russia will be a lesser partner to China. This is such an American/Anglo point of view, who can only think in terms of empire, master/slave, etc. As an American, it's clear we're making increasingly poor and erratic decisions because we simply refuse to understand that there isn't one universal culture (Western) that everyone should have, and if they don't, they're evil. We've done a lot of feel-good things in response to Russia's military operation in Ukraine, but I don't think it works out well in the end. America is significantly weaker because of the actions we've already taken, and I'm confident we'll double down a few dozen more times before things stabilize again. BRICS countries can sense the opportunity Russia's isolation by the West has given them.

idiotsecant 5y ago
> This is such an American/Anglo point of view, who can only think in terms of empire, master/slave, etc. No, this is a human point of view. China has been consistently engaged in this exact practice since before the idea of 'China' even really existed. Strong groups will ultimately culturally / economically / militarily subsume weaker ones. It's how families grow into tribes grow into federations grow into city-states grow into nations grow into empires. China well and truly understands how this works. Pretending that everyone on the continent is actually Han Chinese is practically the state religion, for good reason - it helps to expand the in-group and galvanize the tribe against the out-group for the purpose of perpetuating the above cycle. It's fashionable to pretend that western imperialism is the only imperialism. It's only because the west is so good at cultural and economic imperialism (and rarely actual military imperialism) that people make this point. The west is generally successful at spreading it's values because people want to adopt those values. The same is not true of more autocratic systems.
- erichocean 5y ago
  China has 4 military bases outside China. The United States has 750 military bases outside the US. One is an empire, the other…isn't. P.s. Britain has 145 overseas military bases.
- qiskit 5y ago
  > (and rarely actual military imperialism) What? It's entirely military imperialism. It's what everything else built upon. > The west is generally successful at spreading it's values because people want to adopt those values. No. It's because we forcefeed foreign populations with propaganda. > The same is not true of more autocratic systems. Yes, the autocrats are more honest about it. We do it in a very insidious and sneaky way. You are just repeating the "white man's burden" propaganda. The white man needs to christianize and civilize the world. Now, it's the white man needs to spread "western values". I guess african, muslim, chinese, indian, etc values don't matter. Africans, asians, native americans, aborigines, etc didn't want to adopt christianity. It was forced upon them. Just like "western values" will be forced upon them in due time unless the world free itself from western domination. I agree with you that imperialism isn't a solely a western tradition. The arabs, persians, chinese, indians, etc all have dabbled in it. I'm against all of it. If it was arabs, chinese, persians, indians, etc doing what you are advocating, you'd call it genocide. But somehow you twist "genocide" as something these people want done to them by us.
  - argsnd 5y ago
    You don’t need propaganda to realise that then west is unfathomably rich compared to the rest of the world, and to want to be unfathomably rich yourself. The reason it is so rich is that it has developed inclusive liberal democratic institutions that have enabled it to rather consistently make better choices than the rest of the world. People like you are unable to believe this, and choose to misguide yourselves that it’s “military imperialism” or “propaganda”. The Soviets had both of those things and what happened to them?
    - qiskit 5y ago
      > The reason it is so rich is that it has developed inclusive liberal democratic institutions that have enabled it to rather consistently make better choices than the rest of the world. Simply false. It's because the west was able to steal continents from native and aboriginal peoples and colonize indians, africans, etc. The west became rich before much of the west became a "liberal democracy". > People like you are unable to believe this, and choose to misguide yourselves that it’s “military imperialism” or “propaganda”. I'm from the wealthiest country in the world. I know how we became rich. Not sure where you are from and what "liberal democracy" has to do with anything. It wasn't "liberal democracy" which allowed us to expand from 13 states to 50 states. It wasn't "liberal democracy" that allowed Rockefeller to become the wealthiest man in the world via Standard Oil. Britain didn't become wealthy via liberal democracy. Neither did france and the rest of "the west". > The Soviets had both of those things and what happened to them? They lost the cold war. That's what happened. If you lose a war, you suffer. Applies just as much as to a liberal democracy as it does to a communist state. Which country became wealthy from liberal democracy? Not a single one. Not taiwan, not south korea, not japan, not the US, not any country in europe. The trick is you become rich and then you can play around with liberal democracy. I used to believe the liberal democracy nonsense too. Then I started to think and like most propaganda, it turns out it is nonsense.

idiotsecant 5y ago

> This is such an American/Anglo point of view, who can only think in terms of empire, master/slave, etc. No, this is a human point of view. China has been consistently engaged in this exact practice since before the idea of 'China' even really existed. Strong groups will ultimately culturally / economically / militarily subsume weaker ones. It's how families grow into tribes grow into federations grow into city-states grow into nations grow into empires. China well and truly understands how this works. Pretending that everyone on the continent is actually Han Chinese is practically the state religion, for good reason - it helps to expand the in-group and galvanize the tribe against the out-group for the purpose of perpetuating the above cycle. It's fashionable to pretend that western imperialism is the only imperialism. It's only because the west is so good at cultural and economic imperialism (and rarely actual military imperialism) that people make this point. The west is generally successful at spreading it's values because people want to adopt those values. The same is not true of more autocratic systems.

erichocean 5y ago
China has 4 military bases outside China. The United States has 750 military bases outside the US. One is an empire, the other…isn't. P.s. Britain has 145 overseas military bases.
qiskit 5y ago
> (and rarely actual military imperialism) What? It's entirely military imperialism. It's what everything else built upon. > The west is generally successful at spreading it's values because people want to adopt those values. No. It's because we forcefeed foreign populations with propaganda. > The same is not true of more autocratic systems. Yes, the autocrats are more honest about it. We do it in a very insidious and sneaky way. You are just repeating the "white man's burden" propaganda. The white man needs to christianize and civilize the world. Now, it's the white man needs to spread "western values". I guess african, muslim, chinese, indian, etc values don't matter. Africans, asians, native americans, aborigines, etc didn't want to adopt christianity. It was forced upon them. Just like "western values" will be forced upon them in due time unless the world free itself from western domination. I agree with you that imperialism isn't a solely a western tradition. The arabs, persians, chinese, indians, etc all have dabbled in it. I'm against all of it. If it was arabs, chinese, persians, indians, etc doing what you are advocating, you'd call it genocide. But somehow you twist "genocide" as something these people want done to them by us.
- argsnd 5y ago
  You don’t need propaganda to realise that then west is unfathomably rich compared to the rest of the world, and to want to be unfathomably rich yourself. The reason it is so rich is that it has developed inclusive liberal democratic institutions that have enabled it to rather consistently make better choices than the rest of the world. People like you are unable to believe this, and choose to misguide yourselves that it’s “military imperialism” or “propaganda”. The Soviets had both of those things and what happened to them?
  - qiskit 5y ago
    > The reason it is so rich is that it has developed inclusive liberal democratic institutions that have enabled it to rather consistently make better choices than the rest of the world. Simply false. It's because the west was able to steal continents from native and aboriginal peoples and colonize indians, africans, etc. The west became rich before much of the west became a "liberal democracy". > People like you are unable to believe this, and choose to misguide yourselves that it’s “military imperialism” or “propaganda”. I'm from the wealthiest country in the world. I know how we became rich. Not sure where you are from and what "liberal democracy" has to do with anything. It wasn't "liberal democracy" which allowed us to expand from 13 states to 50 states. It wasn't "liberal democracy" that allowed Rockefeller to become the wealthiest man in the world via Standard Oil. Britain didn't become wealthy via liberal democracy. Neither did france and the rest of "the west". > The Soviets had both of those things and what happened to them? They lost the cold war. That's what happened. If you lose a war, you suffer. Applies just as much as to a liberal democracy as it does to a communist state. Which country became wealthy from liberal democracy? Not a single one. Not taiwan, not south korea, not japan, not the US, not any country in europe. The trick is you become rich and then you can play around with liberal democracy. I used to believe the liberal democracy nonsense too. Then I started to think and like most propaganda, it turns out it is nonsense.