7 ms·

Ragingbull.com to pay $2.4M for bogus earnings claims, subscription charges

142 points by indus 5y ago

SirLJ 5y ago
Those were exposed for years, here is the person that brought them down, you can check in the comments there some details posted by lawyers… https://www.tradingschools.org/ragingbull-com-jason-bond-jeff-bishop-and-kyle-dennis-have-been-charged-with-fraud/ https://www.tradingschools.org/ragingbull-com-jason-bond-jef...
ocdtrekkie 5y ago
Subscriptions have become such a massive consumer pox over the past few years. It's the new de facto way to scam people out of far more value than you provide.
- ghaff 5y ago
  And yet streaming music services have largely replaced simply buying music. (Ditto for video.) So YMMV.
  - pvarangot 5y ago
    Subscriptions for streaming, for news or data feeds and for software are three different things. Streaming is basically giving me access to whatever music I want from their catalog whenever I want. I know what I will be getting and I'll get it when I want it. For news of for software it's more like paying a subscription and I have no idea if they will keep on giving me reliable useful news and improving their software or not. It used to be that I payed for the software if I liked it, and when they make a new release they have to get me to pay for it again if I want the bug fixes or new features. With news it used to be that I could just stop buying or reading whenever I wanted and I didn't have to navigate anti-patterns to save my money. As a consumer I'm happy paying for streaming services but I feel I'm being held captive by software that makes me pay for a subscription. I'm constantly looking for an alternative to the latter and when I find it I cancel immediately.
    - ghaff 5y ago
      I'm fine with software subscriptions if I'm a regular/heavy user. The problem is if it's an occasional thing that I need to access data/do a very sometimes task.
    - Gigachad 5y ago
      It seems pretty clear at this point that subscription pricing just works better for software. If you go through the old model, sales/customer acquisition never ends. You constantly have to convince previous customers to repurchase. While if you go down the subscription path, you acquire the customer once and then simply have to continue to provide value to keep them. I think in the end the user probably gets a better deal as well since the software ends up being much better and they always have the latest features. When you are a power user the value is undeniable. Things like Github/Gitlab, Office, Photoshop, etc provide way more value than their subscription cost. Where I think its at its worst is for things you hardly use. I don't want to pay a subscription fee for an app I use once a month.
      - ocdtrekkie 5y ago
        > You constantly have to convince previous customers to repurchase. This is a good thing. It forces businesses to earn their revenue, not just rent seek. > I think in the end the user probably gets a better deal as well since the software ends up being much better and they always have the latest features. Completely disagree. Rent-seekers have no reason to improve their products because their users have to pay even if they do nothing.
        Gigachad 5y ago
        You can't just sit around doing nothing and expect to keep customers. Competitors will catch up and beat your offering. What subscriptions mean is more money spent on development and customer support, less money spent on advertising and sales teams. Because the real money is in continually making the customer feel they are getting good value.
        5y ago
- sharpy 5y ago
  Sometimes, it works if you set your VPN to a server in California, because of a law requiring services to offer a means to cancel it online, if the customer signed up online. [1] Also whenever I have the option to do so, I sign up for subscriptions with PayPal. It's super easy to cancel recurring subscriptions on PayPal. [1] https://www.consumerprotectionreview.com/2021/11/california-passes-updated-automatic-renewal-law/#:~:text=Under%20the%20amended%20law%2C%20users,terms%20one%20year%20or%20longer https://www.consumerprotectionreview.com/2021/11/california-....
  - TedDoesntTalk 5y ago
    Do you actually get a different web interface with a cancel option if you signed up using a California VPN? I find that really hard to imagine.
  - JadeNB 5y ago
    > Also whenever I have the option to do so, I sign up for subscriptions with PayPal. It's super easy to cancel recurring subscriptions on PayPal. Is this like with expiring credit cards, where you just let it lapse (which it's my understanding does not automatically get you off the hook—you just hope it's not worth the company's time to pursue you), or is there actually a mechanism automatically provided through PayPal to cancel subscriptions?
    - koofdoof 5y ago
      At least in the US the expiring credit card method actually no longer works. It was changed a few years back to automatically roll subscriptions over to the replacement card. I cant imagine how many people got tricked into keeping on subscriptions when that was silently changed.
      - lyrrad 5y ago
        Some US credit card providers provide virtual account numbers, allowing you to obtain separate/unique card numbers tied to a specific credit card, and can have short expirations, or be revoked early. There are also some services that provide these virtual cards tied to debit cards or bank accounts. I haven't tried these types of services since I prefer the protection of credit cards, which often offer significant points or cash back rewards.
- lukeholder 5y ago
  This is why I try to move all my subscriptions inside of apples app store management system. Easy management of subscriptions in a central location. One click unsubscribe. I would love a central 3rd party service that could manage subscriptions across the web - ping me if you want to build it with me.
TedDoesntTalk 5y ago
America Online mastered the subscription cancellation pain. Lots of people are retired on golf courses today because of it.
harles 5y ago
I think the more important bit here is that the earnings reported weren’t typical and in many cases appear to be completely fake. The subscription model is egregious, and probably illegal in most states, but that’s not the main problem.
rlpb 5y ago
> The order will also require the settling defendants to provide consumers with an easy method to cancel their subscriptions and require them to get express, informed consent from consumers before signing them up for a recurring subscription plan. If it is decided that cancellations weren't being reasonably "accepted", costing customers money, then why aren't all customers automatically due back the money that was unlawfully taken from them from the date they tried to cancel? If they didn't have express, informed consent from consumers before "signing them up" for a recurring subscription plan, how did a contract exist between them at all? Does this not mean that all money they took was fraudulent in these cases? Because this is the problem. Cancellation usually takes place the moment you give them (or reasonably try to give them) notice of cancellation [whether they want to accept that or not]. You don't owe them any more money from that point, and if they say you do, then that should be considered fraud. Therefore they should automatically owe you any further money they took (whether by automatic payment or under duress by threat of hurting your credit record). This seems like a thief has been caught, told not do it again, but is required to return only a fraction of goods they stole, and not even to the people they stole it from.
- philip1209 5y ago
  Is it reasonable for customers to file civil suits against the company?
- wpietri 5y ago
  This is true, but it's also very common in America. Businesses get a lot of deference. E.g., we have a whole category of deceptive language businesses are allowed use: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Puffery https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Puffery
- encryptluks2 5y ago
  This reminds me of a letter I got from Sirius XM in the mail after purchasing a new vehicle that said if I do not call to cancel within 7 days after getting the letter that I automatically accept their terms of service. Imagine being able to send letters to people that say if they don't respond or do anything that they are agreeing to something.
runnerup 5y ago
Would love to see something like this for Adobe as well! https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1489901640777973768.html https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1489901640777973768.html
- toomuchtodo 5y ago
  https://reportfraud.ftc.gov/#/ https://reportfraud.ftc.gov/#/
- FredPret 5y ago
  And every newspaper
  - jjtheblunt 5y ago
    or just NYT for starters, in my experience. i mean it's super disgusting how shady they are, for such touted journalism
    - Cerium 5y ago
      I guess their numbers show it is a net win, but I'm not a subscriber solely on the basis that they don't let you cancel easily.
    - Rastonbury 5y ago
      I heard horror stories but I managed to cancel pretty easily back when I did, just did it online.
      - jjtheblunt 5y ago
        Can't do it online nowadays, last verified early 2022, and have to phone some number during particular hours.
        ViViDboarder 5y ago
        Depends on where you signed up. At least in California, you must offer cancellation online for anyone who signs up online.
sonicggg 5y ago
I suggest signing up for subscription services using virtual credit cards instead. There's a service called Privacy (https://privacy.com/ https://privacy.com/) that provides those. You can set up limits and expiration dates. I find it safer.
- throwaway72759 5y ago
  I used a Privacy card to sign up for a Scribd trial to get access to one single PDF that was technically in the public domain but not accessible anywhere else online. That was almost a year ago, and they still try to charge my card for $9.99 every 5-10 days.
atdrummond 5y ago
Interestingly, this is a site I saw (more than once) promoted by HN users on threads that discussed investing as an individual. It gave off immediately sketchy vibes as a Malkiel-acolyte, I tend to be skeptical of individuals who claim to generate long run alpha in general - let alone someone willing to sell this magic sauce. Based off the settlement, it sounds like unfortunately a large number of people were taken and for likely not insignificant funds. I hope this is where the buck just gets going, rather than where it ends.
- SamBam 5y ago
  > promoted by HN users I know we have a strong faith in being surrounded by serious people here on HN, but I'm sure there are at least a small percentage of accounts who are people with a desire to influence the crowd (whether paid shills or not). Seriously, what does it cost a manger at RagingBull or anywhere else to have 2 or 3 accounts with enough karma not to get flagged as new, to chime in on some thread about trading? They could easily have a well-seen comment (comments here number in the hundreds, not tens of thousands like on Reddit) and influence a fair number of wealthy tech people. Heck, if I saw three different users agreeing with each other on an HN thread about some product, I'd definitely be curious. I have to remember myself how much of what I see is manipulation, even on a site like HN.
  - atdrummond 5y ago
    As I said above, given that the article(s) in question had loads of comment chains being deleted for promotional material and other low quality content, I wouldn't be surprised.
- tomnipotent 5y ago
  > promoted by HN users Other than this article, I can't find any evidence the community has ever discussed it. https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&query=ragingbull.com&sort=byPopularity&type=all https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&query=ragingbull.com&s...
  - 5y ago
gzer0 5y ago
I avoid any pains that have to deal with subscriptions because I use Privacy.com [1]; it allows one to create unlimited "burner" cards, with the ability to create spending limits per card, or vendor-lock in per card. Never had an issue. [1] https://privacy.com https://privacy.com
- dghlsakjg 5y ago
  FYI, not being able to be charged is not the same as not owing them money. Most sites will just automatically cancel your subscription if your card fails without an explicit cancel. But the real slimebag ones will keep it going and sell the debt to a collection agency.
  - Firmwarrior 5y ago
    What're you supposed to do at that point, anyway? This happened to me, and I just contested the debt and got it wiped out. That was like 10 years ago, though, and I'm guessing the credit agencies are a lot less willing to side with human beings nowadays Can you take someone to small claims court for claiming you owe them money, in order to not pay?
    - bigyikes 5y ago
      I’m mildly upset right now because The State of California is doing this to me. I moved out of California on 7/10, and my vehicle registration expired on 7/14. The Vehicle Registrations Collections office sent a “Demand for Payment” to my new address because my registration is past due. I have to call to contest. How can they charge me money for something I never wanted or legally needed?
      - ViViDboarder 5y ago
        I don’t have mine automatically renew. I had to go online and submit a renewal.
      - gameshot911 5y ago
martimarkov 5y ago
Is the page down or is it because I’m based outside the US I get a 404?
- cmeacham98 5y ago
  I'm in the US and receive a 404 too, my guess is moved or taken down for some reason.
- brogrammer2018 5y ago
  https://www.ftc.gov/business-guidance/blog/2022/03/ftc-knocks-out-raging-bulls-deceptive-earnings-claims https://www.ftc.gov/business-guidance/blog/2022/03/ftc-knock...
amingilani 5y ago
> Sorry, www.ftc.gov is down for maintenance. It will be back up shortly. Here's a Google cached version: http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:https://www.ftc.gov/news-events/press-releases/2022/03/online-investment-site-pay-more-24-million-bogus-stock-earnings&strip=1&vwsrc=0 http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:https:/...
ProAm 5y ago
Please go after the NY Times next, its impossible to cancel with them
neonate 5y ago
http://web.archive.org/web/20220311012859/https://www.ftc.gov/news-events/press-releases/2022/03/online-investment-site-pay-more-24-million-bogus-stock-earnings http://web.archive.org/web/20220311012859/https://www.ftc.go...
tommiegannert 5y ago
Oh, that's nice. I was following this case [1] for some time. Raging bull is a stock picker letter subscription service. Their books were laid open in the court case. IIRC they were easily raking in $10M in 2020. The $2.4M isn't more than a tax. The most striking thing in this whole case is Jason Bond's early testimony (I think it was Jan-Feb 2020) that he didn't go into the business to trade stocks, but to make money teaching others to trade stocks. After seing Tim Sykes (IIRC) make huge profits from subscriptions. There's some evidence that he's a net loser in trading, presented by a forensic accountant. On top of that, there are some heart-breaking testimonies from customers about "they made it sound so simple, and when I lost money, I bought in to the next level subscription." There was a receivership and order to halt operations a year ago, but it only lasted a couple of months. I was very disappointed the FTC couldn't find more to shut this operation down. It doesn't seem like a business the world would miss. [1] https://www.courtlistener.com/docket/18719211/federal-trade-commission-v-ragingbullcom-llc/ https://www.courtlistener.com/docket/18719211/federal-trade-...
- hackernewds 5y ago
  Wondering when this comeuppance arrives for Motley Fool, and their ambitious claims and mathemagical claims of returns on their clickbait ads

142 points by indus 5y ago

Those were exposed for years, here is the person that brought them down, you can check in the comments there some details posted by lawyers… https://www.tradingschools.org/ragingbull-com-jason-bond-jeff-bishop-and-kyle-dennis-have-been-charged-with-fraud/ https://www.tradingschools.org/ragingbull-com-jason-bond-jef...

ocdtrekkie 5y ago

Subscriptions have become such a massive consumer pox over the past few years. It's the new de facto way to scam people out of far more value than you provide.

ghaff 5y ago
And yet streaming music services have largely replaced simply buying music. (Ditto for video.) So YMMV.
- pvarangot 5y ago
  Subscriptions for streaming, for news or data feeds and for software are three different things. Streaming is basically giving me access to whatever music I want from their catalog whenever I want. I know what I will be getting and I'll get it when I want it. For news of for software it's more like paying a subscription and I have no idea if they will keep on giving me reliable useful news and improving their software or not. It used to be that I payed for the software if I liked it, and when they make a new release they have to get me to pay for it again if I want the bug fixes or new features. With news it used to be that I could just stop buying or reading whenever I wanted and I didn't have to navigate anti-patterns to save my money. As a consumer I'm happy paying for streaming services but I feel I'm being held captive by software that makes me pay for a subscription. I'm constantly looking for an alternative to the latter and when I find it I cancel immediately.
  - ghaff 5y ago
    I'm fine with software subscriptions if I'm a regular/heavy user. The problem is if it's an occasional thing that I need to access data/do a very sometimes task.
  - Gigachad 5y ago
    It seems pretty clear at this point that subscription pricing just works better for software. If you go through the old model, sales/customer acquisition never ends. You constantly have to convince previous customers to repurchase. While if you go down the subscription path, you acquire the customer once and then simply have to continue to provide value to keep them. I think in the end the user probably gets a better deal as well since the software ends up being much better and they always have the latest features. When you are a power user the value is undeniable. Things like Github/Gitlab, Office, Photoshop, etc provide way more value than their subscription cost. Where I think its at its worst is for things you hardly use. I don't want to pay a subscription fee for an app I use once a month.
    - ocdtrekkie 5y ago
      > You constantly have to convince previous customers to repurchase. This is a good thing. It forces businesses to earn their revenue, not just rent seek. > I think in the end the user probably gets a better deal as well since the software ends up being much better and they always have the latest features. Completely disagree. Rent-seekers have no reason to improve their products because their users have to pay even if they do nothing.
      - Gigachad 5y ago
        You can't just sit around doing nothing and expect to keep customers. Competitors will catch up and beat your offering. What subscriptions mean is more money spent on development and customer support, less money spent on advertising and sales teams. Because the real money is in continually making the customer feel they are getting good value.
        5y ago
sharpy 5y ago
Sometimes, it works if you set your VPN to a server in California, because of a law requiring services to offer a means to cancel it online, if the customer signed up online. [1] Also whenever I have the option to do so, I sign up for subscriptions with PayPal. It's super easy to cancel recurring subscriptions on PayPal. [1] https://www.consumerprotectionreview.com/2021/11/california-passes-updated-automatic-renewal-law/#:~:text=Under%20the%20amended%20law%2C%20users,terms%20one%20year%20or%20longer https://www.consumerprotectionreview.com/2021/11/california-....
- TedDoesntTalk 5y ago
  Do you actually get a different web interface with a cancel option if you signed up using a California VPN? I find that really hard to imagine.
- JadeNB 5y ago
  > Also whenever I have the option to do so, I sign up for subscriptions with PayPal. It's super easy to cancel recurring subscriptions on PayPal. Is this like with expiring credit cards, where you just let it lapse (which it's my understanding does not automatically get you off the hook—you just hope it's not worth the company's time to pursue you), or is there actually a mechanism automatically provided through PayPal to cancel subscriptions?
  - koofdoof 5y ago
    At least in the US the expiring credit card method actually no longer works. It was changed a few years back to automatically roll subscriptions over to the replacement card. I cant imagine how many people got tricked into keeping on subscriptions when that was silently changed.
    - lyrrad 5y ago
      Some US credit card providers provide virtual account numbers, allowing you to obtain separate/unique card numbers tied to a specific credit card, and can have short expirations, or be revoked early. There are also some services that provide these virtual cards tied to debit cards or bank accounts. I haven't tried these types of services since I prefer the protection of credit cards, which often offer significant points or cash back rewards.
lukeholder 5y ago
This is why I try to move all my subscriptions inside of apples app store management system. Easy management of subscriptions in a central location. One click unsubscribe. I would love a central 3rd party service that could manage subscriptions across the web - ping me if you want to build it with me.

TedDoesntTalk 5y ago

America Online mastered the subscription cancellation pain. Lots of people are retired on golf courses today because of it.

harles 5y ago

I think the more important bit here is that the earnings reported weren’t typical and in many cases appear to be completely fake. The subscription model is egregious, and probably illegal in most states, but that’s not the main problem.

rlpb 5y ago

> The order will also require the settling defendants to provide consumers with an easy method to cancel their subscriptions and require them to get express, informed consent from consumers before signing them up for a recurring subscription plan. If it is decided that cancellations weren't being reasonably "accepted", costing customers money, then why aren't all customers automatically due back the money that was unlawfully taken from them from the date they tried to cancel? If they didn't have express, informed consent from consumers before "signing them up" for a recurring subscription plan, how did a contract exist between them at all? Does this not mean that all money they took was fraudulent in these cases? Because this is the problem. Cancellation usually takes place the moment you give them (or reasonably try to give them) notice of cancellation [whether they want to accept that or not]. You don't owe them any more money from that point, and if they say you do, then that should be considered fraud. Therefore they should automatically owe you any further money they took (whether by automatic payment or under duress by threat of hurting your credit record). This seems like a thief has been caught, told not do it again, but is required to return only a fraction of goods they stole, and not even to the people they stole it from.

philip1209 5y ago
Is it reasonable for customers to file civil suits against the company?
wpietri 5y ago
This is true, but it's also very common in America. Businesses get a lot of deference. E.g., we have a whole category of deceptive language businesses are allowed use: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Puffery https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Puffery
encryptluks2 5y ago
This reminds me of a letter I got from Sirius XM in the mail after purchasing a new vehicle that said if I do not call to cancel within 7 days after getting the letter that I automatically accept their terms of service. Imagine being able to send letters to people that say if they don't respond or do anything that they are agreeing to something.

runnerup 5y ago

Would love to see something like this for Adobe as well! https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1489901640777973768.html https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1489901640777973768.html

toomuchtodo 5y ago
https://reportfraud.ftc.gov/#/ https://reportfraud.ftc.gov/#/
FredPret 5y ago
And every newspaper
- jjtheblunt 5y ago
  or just NYT for starters, in my experience. i mean it's super disgusting how shady they are, for such touted journalism
  - Cerium 5y ago
    I guess their numbers show it is a net win, but I'm not a subscriber solely on the basis that they don't let you cancel easily.
  - Rastonbury 5y ago
    I heard horror stories but I managed to cancel pretty easily back when I did, just did it online.
    - jjtheblunt 5y ago
      Can't do it online nowadays, last verified early 2022, and have to phone some number during particular hours.
      - ViViDboarder 5y ago
        Depends on where you signed up. At least in California, you must offer cancellation online for anyone who signs up online.

sonicggg 5y ago

I suggest signing up for subscription services using virtual credit cards instead. There's a service called Privacy (https://privacy.com/ https://privacy.com/) that provides those. You can set up limits and expiration dates. I find it safer.

throwaway72759 5y ago
I used a Privacy card to sign up for a Scribd trial to get access to one single PDF that was technically in the public domain but not accessible anywhere else online. That was almost a year ago, and they still try to charge my card for $9.99 every 5-10 days.

atdrummond 5y ago

Interestingly, this is a site I saw (more than once) promoted by HN users on threads that discussed investing as an individual. It gave off immediately sketchy vibes as a Malkiel-acolyte, I tend to be skeptical of individuals who claim to generate long run alpha in general - let alone someone willing to sell this magic sauce. Based off the settlement, it sounds like unfortunately a large number of people were taken and for likely not insignificant funds. I hope this is where the buck just gets going, rather than where it ends.

SamBam 5y ago
> promoted by HN users I know we have a strong faith in being surrounded by serious people here on HN, but I'm sure there are at least a small percentage of accounts who are people with a desire to influence the crowd (whether paid shills or not). Seriously, what does it cost a manger at RagingBull or anywhere else to have 2 or 3 accounts with enough karma not to get flagged as new, to chime in on some thread about trading? They could easily have a well-seen comment (comments here number in the hundreds, not tens of thousands like on Reddit) and influence a fair number of wealthy tech people. Heck, if I saw three different users agreeing with each other on an HN thread about some product, I'd definitely be curious. I have to remember myself how much of what I see is manipulation, even on a site like HN.
- atdrummond 5y ago
  As I said above, given that the article(s) in question had loads of comment chains being deleted for promotional material and other low quality content, I wouldn't be surprised.
tomnipotent 5y ago
> promoted by HN users Other than this article, I can't find any evidence the community has ever discussed it. https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&query=ragingbull.com&sort=byPopularity&type=all https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&query=ragingbull.com&s...
- 5y ago

gzer0 5y ago

I avoid any pains that have to deal with subscriptions because I use Privacy.com [1]; it allows one to create unlimited "burner" cards, with the ability to create spending limits per card, or vendor-lock in per card. Never had an issue. [1] https://privacy.com https://privacy.com

dghlsakjg 5y ago
FYI, not being able to be charged is not the same as not owing them money. Most sites will just automatically cancel your subscription if your card fails without an explicit cancel. But the real slimebag ones will keep it going and sell the debt to a collection agency.
- Firmwarrior 5y ago
  What're you supposed to do at that point, anyway? This happened to me, and I just contested the debt and got it wiped out. That was like 10 years ago, though, and I'm guessing the credit agencies are a lot less willing to side with human beings nowadays Can you take someone to small claims court for claiming you owe them money, in order to not pay?
  - bigyikes 5y ago
    I’m mildly upset right now because The State of California is doing this to me. I moved out of California on 7/10, and my vehicle registration expired on 7/14. The Vehicle Registrations Collections office sent a “Demand for Payment” to my new address because my registration is past due. I have to call to contest. How can they charge me money for something I never wanted or legally needed?
    - ViViDboarder 5y ago
      I don’t have mine automatically renew. I had to go online and submit a renewal.
    - gameshot911 5y ago

martimarkov 5y ago

Is the page down or is it because I’m based outside the US I get a 404?

cmeacham98 5y ago
I'm in the US and receive a 404 too, my guess is moved or taken down for some reason.
brogrammer2018 5y ago
https://www.ftc.gov/business-guidance/blog/2022/03/ftc-knocks-out-raging-bulls-deceptive-earnings-claims https://www.ftc.gov/business-guidance/blog/2022/03/ftc-knock...

amingilani 5y ago

> Sorry, www.ftc.gov is down for maintenance. It will be back up shortly. Here's a Google cached version: http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:https://www.ftc.gov/news-events/press-releases/2022/03/online-investment-site-pay-more-24-million-bogus-stock-earnings&strip=1&vwsrc=0 http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:https:/...

ProAm 5y ago

Please go after the NY Times next, its impossible to cancel with them

neonate 5y ago

http://web.archive.org/web/20220311012859/https://www.ftc.gov/news-events/press-releases/2022/03/online-investment-site-pay-more-24-million-bogus-stock-earnings http://web.archive.org/web/20220311012859/https://www.ftc.go...

tommiegannert 5y ago

Oh, that's nice. I was following this case [1] for some time. Raging bull is a stock picker letter subscription service. Their books were laid open in the court case. IIRC they were easily raking in $10M in 2020. The $2.4M isn't more than a tax. The most striking thing in this whole case is Jason Bond's early testimony (I think it was Jan-Feb 2020) that he didn't go into the business to trade stocks, but to make money teaching others to trade stocks. After seing Tim Sykes (IIRC) make huge profits from subscriptions. There's some evidence that he's a net loser in trading, presented by a forensic accountant. On top of that, there are some heart-breaking testimonies from customers about "they made it sound so simple, and when I lost money, I bought in to the next level subscription." There was a receivership and order to halt operations a year ago, but it only lasted a couple of months. I was very disappointed the FTC couldn't find more to shut this operation down. It doesn't seem like a business the world would miss. [1] https://www.courtlistener.com/docket/18719211/federal-trade-commission-v-ragingbullcom-llc/ https://www.courtlistener.com/docket/18719211/federal-trade-...

hackernewds 5y ago
Wondering when this comeuppance arrives for Motley Fool, and their ambitious claims and mathemagical claims of returns on their clickbait ads