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The difference in the costs of the solutions you're talking about are to the order of many magnitudes. Congestion pricing is a quick fix that is not a punishme

The difference in the costs of the solutions you're talking about are to the order of many magnitudes. Congestion pricing is a quick fix that is not a punishment, because everyone would be waiting in traffic anyways. Opening up the extra lanes to all would only increase wait times for all with induced demand. But like GP said, the fix especially angers people.

autoexec 5y ago
> Congestion pricing is a quick fix It doesn't actually fix the problem. The problem is that people can't get to where they want to go without difficulty because of inadequate planning/maintenance. Congestion pricing just changes the nature of that difficulty. People will still be negatively impacted, either by additional delays caused by having to select longer routes to where they're headed (when that's even an option) or by suffering financial penalties for something that is no fault of their own. Fixing the problem means actually updating and maintaining roadways to accommodate demand (something that should already be the norm/expectation for every road built) and doing a better job planning for increased demand in the future so that the government isn't caught off guard and can budget accordingly to handle those costs and needs quickly. Yes, actually fixing the problem once they've screwed up costs a lot of money, and it's true that congestion pricing could help pay for that (assuming that 100% of all money collected goes to that effort and nothing else), but in the meantime drivers continue to be negatively impacted, traffic forced to alternate longer routes will waste gas, hurt the environment, cause more wear on people's vesicles, cause increased wear and congestion on those alternate roads, and the administration/overhead of congestion pricing eats into every penny you earn towards something that should have been budgeted for and paid for by our taxes in the first place. If the question is "How best to pay for what we should have been doing already" it's so much faster, and easier to get the funds needed to properly manage/maintain public roads by collecting a very small amount of money from a very a large number of people on the promise that they will be able to drive on any public road anywhere without needless difficulty, than it is to only collect funds from a very small number of people over a much much longer period of time while also inconveniencing every driver and pushing problems onto surrounding areas.
- mikem170 5y ago
  Could using a toll to discourage people from using infrastructure that can't be efficiently scaled to larger capacity be the best fix in some instances? Maybe people would then gravitate towards less cumbersome commuting patterns.
  - autoexec 5y ago
    If there's a road that needs to be updated/replaced, but for some reason cannot be, and if alternate routes to the most popular destinations already exist, I'd think most people would naturally seek them out rather than deal with delays and traffic backups caused by the congestion alone. There really isn't any need to put more hurt on people beyond that. In a case like that the real solution would be improvements to alternate routes or the construction of new and efficient routes in areas where construction can take place to attract people away from the congested road that can't be improved on. The priority should always be to try to make things easier for people to move where they want to go, not to make it more inconvenient and painful for them when they do it. I think most people would rather not deal with excessive traffic and crowded roads and wouldn't if given the choice. Many just don't really get much choice in the commuting patterns they have. If your job requires you to be somewhere at a specific time, you're going to go. If you have to pick up your kid at a specific place and time you'll be there. Most of us are already trying to optimize for less traffic and travel time. Those of us with limited options to do that suffer enough as it is.
    - mikem170 5y ago
      A couple cities I've been in with lots of HOV lanes seem to be at the limits of what expressway exits and the connecting roads can handle. Building more expressways doesn't help, the exits get backed up. It turns into quite a mess. I guess I was thinking even longer term. Maybe people will demand/gravitate towards areas that are not so car dependent. It does seem sub-optimal that we made a world for ourselves that expects pretty much each and every adult to own something as expensive and dangerous as a car just to get by. I don't know that building more roads is the best long term answer.

autoexec 5y ago

> Congestion pricing is a quick fix It doesn't actually fix the problem. The problem is that people can't get to where they want to go without difficulty because of inadequate planning/maintenance. Congestion pricing just changes the nature of that difficulty. People will still be negatively impacted, either by additional delays caused by having to select longer routes to where they're headed (when that's even an option) or by suffering financial penalties for something that is no fault of their own. Fixing the problem means actually updating and maintaining roadways to accommodate demand (something that should already be the norm/expectation for every road built) and doing a better job planning for increased demand in the future so that the government isn't caught off guard and can budget accordingly to handle those costs and needs quickly. Yes, actually fixing the problem once they've screwed up costs a lot of money, and it's true that congestion pricing could help pay for that (assuming that 100% of all money collected goes to that effort and nothing else), but in the meantime drivers continue to be negatively impacted, traffic forced to alternate longer routes will waste gas, hurt the environment, cause more wear on people's vesicles, cause increased wear and congestion on those alternate roads, and the administration/overhead of congestion pricing eats into every penny you earn towards something that should have been budgeted for and paid for by our taxes in the first place. If the question is "How best to pay for what we should have been doing already" it's so much faster, and easier to get the funds needed to properly manage/maintain public roads by collecting a very small amount of money from a very a large number of people on the promise that they will be able to drive on any public road anywhere without needless difficulty, than it is to only collect funds from a very small number of people over a much much longer period of time while also inconveniencing every driver and pushing problems onto surrounding areas.

mikem170 5y ago
Could using a toll to discourage people from using infrastructure that can't be efficiently scaled to larger capacity be the best fix in some instances? Maybe people would then gravitate towards less cumbersome commuting patterns.
- autoexec 5y ago
  If there's a road that needs to be updated/replaced, but for some reason cannot be, and if alternate routes to the most popular destinations already exist, I'd think most people would naturally seek them out rather than deal with delays and traffic backups caused by the congestion alone. There really isn't any need to put more hurt on people beyond that. In a case like that the real solution would be improvements to alternate routes or the construction of new and efficient routes in areas where construction can take place to attract people away from the congested road that can't be improved on. The priority should always be to try to make things easier for people to move where they want to go, not to make it more inconvenient and painful for them when they do it. I think most people would rather not deal with excessive traffic and crowded roads and wouldn't if given the choice. Many just don't really get much choice in the commuting patterns they have. If your job requires you to be somewhere at a specific time, you're going to go. If you have to pick up your kid at a specific place and time you'll be there. Most of us are already trying to optimize for less traffic and travel time. Those of us with limited options to do that suffer enough as it is.
  - mikem170 5y ago
    A couple cities I've been in with lots of HOV lanes seem to be at the limits of what expressway exits and the connecting roads can handle. Building more expressways doesn't help, the exits get backed up. It turns into quite a mess. I guess I was thinking even longer term. Maybe people will demand/gravitate towards areas that are not so car dependent. It does seem sub-optimal that we made a world for ourselves that expects pretty much each and every adult to own something as expensive and dangerous as a car just to get by. I don't know that building more roads is the best long term answer.