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I suspect Russia will soon enough find itself closely intertwined with Chinese ecosystems and standards. I think Putin has envy for Xi’s autocratic-techno-state

I suspect Russia will soon enough find itself closely intertwined with Chinese ecosystems and standards. I think Putin has envy for Xi’s autocratic-techno-state and wishes to emulate it. What better way than to become a part of it.

rektide 5y ago
Thankfully we're not seeing a total fuck-off-world axis forming here, a 100% antagonist alliance-versus-world relationship forming. China has recently refused to resupply parts for the Russian air transport systems[1] (so claims Russia). I don't think you are wrong at all. But I don't think this intertwining will be as mutually desired & reinforcing as Russia might perhaps have hoped. [1] https://www.reuters.com/business/aerospace-defense/russia-says-china-refuses-supply-aircraft-parts-after-sanctions-2022-03-10/ https://www.reuters.com/business/aerospace-defense/russia-sa...
mytailorisrich 5y ago
More broadly, I think what's happening vindicates China's strategy and will be a watershed moment. We're seeing that most key global infrastructures for telecoms, internet, finance, etc. and pretty much all global tech companies are controlled by the USA and that they will weaponise everything against you as they see fit. The logical conclusion is that, if you can, you should build your own alternatives, which is what China has been doing. Things are going to become more fragmented from now on.
- signatoremo 5y ago
  China have done it because they have superpower ambition, and because they can. There are areas where they still haven’t been able to do the same such as jet engine. Also, not everyone can build their own. Most of the world will continue to use the current one. Some other like Russia will use China’s one. Do you think China will be less aggressive than the US in weaponizing everything against you as they see fit? Russia will be a lesser partner to China. The dream of Russia Empire glory will still be a dream only.
  - erichocean 5y ago
    > Russia will be a lesser partner to China. This is such an American/Anglo point of view, who can only think in terms of empire, master/slave, etc. As an American, it's clear we're making increasingly poor and erratic decisions because we simply refuse to understand that there isn't one universal culture (Western) that everyone should have, and if they don't, they're evil. We've done a lot of feel-good things in response to Russia's military operation in Ukraine, but I don't think it works out well in the end. America is significantly weaker because of the actions we've already taken, and I'm confident we'll double down a few dozen more times before things stabilize again. BRICS countries can sense the opportunity Russia's isolation by the West has given them.
    - idiotsecant 5y ago
      > This is such an American/Anglo point of view, who can only think in terms of empire, master/slave, etc. No, this is a human point of view. China has been consistently engaged in this exact practice since before the idea of 'China' even really existed. Strong groups will ultimately culturally / economically / militarily subsume weaker ones. It's how families grow into tribes grow into federations grow into city-states grow into nations grow into empires. China well and truly understands how this works. Pretending that everyone on the continent is actually Han Chinese is practically the state religion, for good reason - it helps to expand the in-group and galvanize the tribe against the out-group for the purpose of perpetuating the above cycle. It's fashionable to pretend that western imperialism is the only imperialism. It's only because the west is so good at cultural and economic imperialism (and rarely actual military imperialism) that people make this point. The west is generally successful at spreading it's values because people want to adopt those values. The same is not true of more autocratic systems.
      - erichocean 5y ago
        China has 4 military bases outside China. The United States has 750 military bases outside the US. One is an empire, the other…isn't. P.s. Britain has 145 overseas military bases.
      - 5y ago
- VincentEvans 5y ago
  The West is “weaponizing everything” as you put it against Russia “as they see fit” in response to the actual aggression against another sovereign country using actual weapons. There is also another alternative you forgot to add to the list that Russia could consider - don’t invade neighboring countries, don’t murder people. It seems to work fine for, I don’t know, let’s say Iceland - much smaller, much weaker country. Wonder why is that?
  - mytailorisrich 5y ago
    This is an emotional view based on the narrative we are being flooded with. What's happening to Russia is because they are not the West and are acting against the West, not because "an actual aggression against another sovereign country using actual weapons", which something the West and allies routinely do as well (and with no less horrible consequences to populations but without any sanctions).
    - VincentEvans 5y ago
      No, it’s happening exactly because it invaded and is killing people in Ukraine. Why invent an alternative and much more complicated reason? Russia was a mess, weak and poor for 20 of the last 30 years. All the West did during this time was invest and assist trying to integrate a former adversary into the world economy.
      - forum_ghost 5y ago
    - zoomablemind 5y ago
      > ...This is an emotional view based on the narrative we are being flooded with. Over 2mil refugee exodus from Ukraine in a mere 2week span is the flood of lives, not the emotional narrative. Any practical ideas to halting the still ongoing Russian effort to demolish Ukraine? Asking the Russian state to "just stop" does not seem to work for now.
  - 5y ago
- stjohnswarts 5y ago
  Sure, well do we need to do business with countries that don't respect international borders and regularly commit war crimes? You're blaming the USA and the west on the invasion of the Ukraine and Russia trying to genocide the Ukrainian people.
polski-g 5y ago
China will be collecting vassal states like I do in EU4. But eventually the vassal swarm will be powerful enough for a WC.
- DwnVoteHoneyPot 5y ago
  what is EU4? what is WC?
  - fire 5y ago
    EU4: europa universalis 4 WC: win condition
    - polski-g 5y ago
      WC: is World Conquest
DwnVoteHoneyPot 5y ago
Yeah with Russia cut off from rest of world, it'll be cheaper for China to take Russian resources such as oil, nickel. Russia will rely on Chinese manufacturing and technology. On the finance side, Russia need China for gov't debt and corporate debt and payments system. All this allows China more power to control Russia (e.g., sanction Russia when they fall out of line).
dzhiurgis 5y ago
Russia is like 4% of China’s gdp. If they get enough sanctions soon enough they’ll not going to step into that shit.

rektide 5y ago

Thankfully we're not seeing a total fuck-off-world axis forming here, a 100% antagonist alliance-versus-world relationship forming. China has recently refused to resupply parts for the Russian air transport systems[1] (so claims Russia). I don't think you are wrong at all. But I don't think this intertwining will be as mutually desired & reinforcing as Russia might perhaps have hoped. [1] https://www.reuters.com/business/aerospace-defense/russia-says-china-refuses-supply-aircraft-parts-after-sanctions-2022-03-10/ https://www.reuters.com/business/aerospace-defense/russia-sa...

mytailorisrich 5y ago

More broadly, I think what's happening vindicates China's strategy and will be a watershed moment. We're seeing that most key global infrastructures for telecoms, internet, finance, etc. and pretty much all global tech companies are controlled by the USA and that they will weaponise everything against you as they see fit. The logical conclusion is that, if you can, you should build your own alternatives, which is what China has been doing. Things are going to become more fragmented from now on.

signatoremo 5y ago
China have done it because they have superpower ambition, and because they can. There are areas where they still haven’t been able to do the same such as jet engine. Also, not everyone can build their own. Most of the world will continue to use the current one. Some other like Russia will use China’s one. Do you think China will be less aggressive than the US in weaponizing everything against you as they see fit? Russia will be a lesser partner to China. The dream of Russia Empire glory will still be a dream only.
- erichocean 5y ago
  > Russia will be a lesser partner to China. This is such an American/Anglo point of view, who can only think in terms of empire, master/slave, etc. As an American, it's clear we're making increasingly poor and erratic decisions because we simply refuse to understand that there isn't one universal culture (Western) that everyone should have, and if they don't, they're evil. We've done a lot of feel-good things in response to Russia's military operation in Ukraine, but I don't think it works out well in the end. America is significantly weaker because of the actions we've already taken, and I'm confident we'll double down a few dozen more times before things stabilize again. BRICS countries can sense the opportunity Russia's isolation by the West has given them.
  - idiotsecant 5y ago
    > This is such an American/Anglo point of view, who can only think in terms of empire, master/slave, etc. No, this is a human point of view. China has been consistently engaged in this exact practice since before the idea of 'China' even really existed. Strong groups will ultimately culturally / economically / militarily subsume weaker ones. It's how families grow into tribes grow into federations grow into city-states grow into nations grow into empires. China well and truly understands how this works. Pretending that everyone on the continent is actually Han Chinese is practically the state religion, for good reason - it helps to expand the in-group and galvanize the tribe against the out-group for the purpose of perpetuating the above cycle. It's fashionable to pretend that western imperialism is the only imperialism. It's only because the west is so good at cultural and economic imperialism (and rarely actual military imperialism) that people make this point. The west is generally successful at spreading it's values because people want to adopt those values. The same is not true of more autocratic systems.
    - erichocean 5y ago
      China has 4 military bases outside China. The United States has 750 military bases outside the US. One is an empire, the other…isn't. P.s. Britain has 145 overseas military bases.
    - 5y ago
VincentEvans 5y ago
The West is “weaponizing everything” as you put it against Russia “as they see fit” in response to the actual aggression against another sovereign country using actual weapons. There is also another alternative you forgot to add to the list that Russia could consider - don’t invade neighboring countries, don’t murder people. It seems to work fine for, I don’t know, let’s say Iceland - much smaller, much weaker country. Wonder why is that?
- mytailorisrich 5y ago
  This is an emotional view based on the narrative we are being flooded with. What's happening to Russia is because they are not the West and are acting against the West, not because "an actual aggression against another sovereign country using actual weapons", which something the West and allies routinely do as well (and with no less horrible consequences to populations but without any sanctions).
  - VincentEvans 5y ago
    No, it’s happening exactly because it invaded and is killing people in Ukraine. Why invent an alternative and much more complicated reason? Russia was a mess, weak and poor for 20 of the last 30 years. All the West did during this time was invest and assist trying to integrate a former adversary into the world economy.
    - forum_ghost 5y ago
  - zoomablemind 5y ago
    > ...This is an emotional view based on the narrative we are being flooded with. Over 2mil refugee exodus from Ukraine in a mere 2week span is the flood of lives, not the emotional narrative. Any practical ideas to halting the still ongoing Russian effort to demolish Ukraine? Asking the Russian state to "just stop" does not seem to work for now.
- 5y ago
stjohnswarts 5y ago
Sure, well do we need to do business with countries that don't respect international borders and regularly commit war crimes? You're blaming the USA and the west on the invasion of the Ukraine and Russia trying to genocide the Ukrainian people.

polski-g 5y ago

China will be collecting vassal states like I do in EU4. But eventually the vassal swarm will be powerful enough for a WC.

DwnVoteHoneyPot 5y ago
what is EU4? what is WC?
- fire 5y ago
  EU4: europa universalis 4 WC: win condition
  - polski-g 5y ago
    WC: is World Conquest

DwnVoteHoneyPot 5y ago

Yeah with Russia cut off from rest of world, it'll be cheaper for China to take Russian resources such as oil, nickel. Russia will rely on Chinese manufacturing and technology. On the finance side, Russia need China for gov't debt and corporate debt and payments system. All this allows China more power to control Russia (e.g., sanction Russia when they fall out of line).

dzhiurgis 5y ago

Russia is like 4% of China’s gdp. If they get enough sanctions soon enough they’ll not going to step into that shit.