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As likely to be used for suicide prevention in the end as older drone projects were for "delivering aid during disaster scenarios" with the required capability

As likely to be used for suicide prevention in the end as older drone projects were for "delivering aid during disaster scenarios" with the required capability to identify individuals. I would say the road to hell is paved with good intentions, but it turns out giving research some transparent lie to tell themselves is more then enough.

kube-system 5y ago
Maybe not for directly delivering aid, but drones have been pretty successful in being useful for search/rescue/mapping disaster areas. Sometimes technology isn't immediately useful in the exact way we think it will be. Sent from my DARPA nuclear-war tolerant communication terminal.
wnkrshm 5y ago
You mean like using the tool to systematically identify the small changes in suicide likelihood due to parameter variation of a subject's interactions/environment and then maximizing the likelihood? A suicide inductor.
- cf141q5325 5y ago
  For example. Or more likely just not just searching for suicide indicators >but, rather, on aggregating preconscious brain signals to determine what someone believes to be true. The screening process envisioned could involve presenting various statement stimuli of behavioral health relevance, such as biographical information, actions, or intentions (e.g., I want to end my life/enjoy my life) to measure preconscious responses. NEAT would triangulate responses to aggregate evidence and determine if the person reading the stimuli statements believes they are true, false, or indeterminate. Wanna bet that it will very quickly be used for detecting other things the governments deems "unwell". Resulting in another kind of "help". The Simpsons clip sprang to mind https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zO0-mofj9EY&t=3s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zO0-mofj9EY&t=3s It is yet another targeting algorithm that has suicide prevent as one very easily replaceable scenario.
jodrellblank 5y ago
https://knowledge.insead.edu/blog/insead-blog/africas-drone-medical-delivery-service-saves-lives-in-lockdown-14371 https://knowledge.insead.edu/blog/insead-blog/africas-drone-... >”In Africa, doctors are also placing orders remotely, but for a rather different kind of sustenance: blood.” > “The plasma is delivered by drones to far-flung communities in Rwanda and Ghana within minutes of the order being placed by text message, often in a context of life-and-death like childbirth gone wrong. They are the world’s first national-scale solution for the healthcare and emergency needs of people living in places not served or hard to reach by land transport. What started with blood supplies and vaccines now also includes medicine, contraceptives and personal protective equipment (PPE).” ZipLine have been doing this since 2016, and are now doing it in the USA too.
- zigzaggy 5y ago
  I think this is a valuable contribution to this conversation. You have shown how drones are definitely being used in critical situations. I can't see why you're being downvoted. I always try to support comments that are being downvoted for the wrong reasons (in terms of the HN rules).
- cf141q5325 5y ago
  Didnt downvote, but you are missing the point. The bad part isnt the drone but the targeting algorithm. See stuff like https://www.darpa.mil/news-events/2017-06-28 https://www.darpa.mil/news-events/2017-06-28 >Under the FLA program, the only human input required is the target or objective for the UAV to search for—which could be in the form of a digital photograph uploaded to the onboard computer before flight—as well as the estimated direction and distance to the target.
ChrisKnott 5y ago
Where are you quoting from? Why would DARPA have any need to conceal that it's research had a military purpose? I can't find anything that says drone projects were originally pitched for aid delivery.
- cf141q5325 5y ago
  One example were those self destructing drones https://www.zdnet.com/article/darpa-develops-disappearing-delivery-drones-for-emergencies/ https://www.zdnet.com/article/darpa-develops-disappearing-de... > Announced this month, the US research agency said Project Icarus will create a fleet of tiny, single-use drones which will deliver emergency supplies -- such as food and medicine -- to remote areas during epidemics or disasters. > However, once their mission is over, each drone will "vanish" after landing thanks to the use of special materials which can transform their state or shatter into mere particles. I however remembered it more in the context of this one https://www.darpa.mil/news-events/2017-06-28 https://www.darpa.mil/news-events/2017-06-28 >Under the FLA program, the only human input required is the target or objective for the UAV to search for—which could be in the form of a digital photograph uploaded to the onboard computer before flight—as well as the estimated direction and distance to the target. Neither autonomous targeting of specific individuals nor the capability to "vanish" are something that has much application in disaster relief. Its the evolution of slaughterbots.
kjgkjhfkjf 5y ago
"NEAT would identify psychological and behavioral changes before they impact military readiness." I think the idea is to identify soldiers and other personnel who are at risk of becoming suicidal during a military operation. This seems like a good idea to me, given the extent that the safety of soldiers depends on the mental acuity of their colleagues.
- zwkrt 5y ago
  On the other hand, if I had this technology and was sufficiently antisocial, I could use it to keep an 'interrogation subject' right on the edge of killing themselves for an extended period of time. I could use it to recruit soldiers for fatalistic operations. I could use it to kick out members of any operation whose moral compunction was detected to be causing them too much distress.
  - kjgkjhfkjf 5y ago
    Yes, it's possible to find appalling uses of most things.
- 0xdeadb00f 5y ago
  Or it could be a way for them to fire suspicious, defiant, or personell they suspect are whistleblowers, without any questions asked.
- cf141q5325 5y ago
  They are >aggregating preconscious brain signals to determine what someone believes to be true. Its a terrorism divining rod. That needs zero change to be used for detecting simple opposition as well.

kube-system 5y ago

Maybe not for directly delivering aid, but drones have been pretty successful in being useful for search/rescue/mapping disaster areas. Sometimes technology isn't immediately useful in the exact way we think it will be. Sent from my DARPA nuclear-war tolerant communication terminal.

wnkrshm 5y ago

You mean like using the tool to systematically identify the small changes in suicide likelihood due to parameter variation of a subject's interactions/environment and then maximizing the likelihood? A suicide inductor.

cf141q5325 5y ago
For example. Or more likely just not just searching for suicide indicators >but, rather, on aggregating preconscious brain signals to determine what someone believes to be true. The screening process envisioned could involve presenting various statement stimuli of behavioral health relevance, such as biographical information, actions, or intentions (e.g., I want to end my life/enjoy my life) to measure preconscious responses. NEAT would triangulate responses to aggregate evidence and determine if the person reading the stimuli statements believes they are true, false, or indeterminate. Wanna bet that it will very quickly be used for detecting other things the governments deems "unwell". Resulting in another kind of "help". The Simpsons clip sprang to mind https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zO0-mofj9EY&t=3s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zO0-mofj9EY&t=3s It is yet another targeting algorithm that has suicide prevent as one very easily replaceable scenario.

jodrellblank 5y ago

https://knowledge.insead.edu/blog/insead-blog/africas-drone-medical-delivery-service-saves-lives-in-lockdown-14371 https://knowledge.insead.edu/blog/insead-blog/africas-drone-... >”In Africa, doctors are also placing orders remotely, but for a rather different kind of sustenance: blood.” > “The plasma is delivered by drones to far-flung communities in Rwanda and Ghana within minutes of the order being placed by text message, often in a context of life-and-death like childbirth gone wrong. They are the world’s first national-scale solution for the healthcare and emergency needs of people living in places not served or hard to reach by land transport. What started with blood supplies and vaccines now also includes medicine, contraceptives and personal protective equipment (PPE).” ZipLine have been doing this since 2016, and are now doing it in the USA too.

zigzaggy 5y ago
I think this is a valuable contribution to this conversation. You have shown how drones are definitely being used in critical situations. I can't see why you're being downvoted. I always try to support comments that are being downvoted for the wrong reasons (in terms of the HN rules).
cf141q5325 5y ago
Didnt downvote, but you are missing the point. The bad part isnt the drone but the targeting algorithm. See stuff like https://www.darpa.mil/news-events/2017-06-28 https://www.darpa.mil/news-events/2017-06-28 >Under the FLA program, the only human input required is the target or objective for the UAV to search for—which could be in the form of a digital photograph uploaded to the onboard computer before flight—as well as the estimated direction and distance to the target.

ChrisKnott 5y ago

Where are you quoting from? Why would DARPA have any need to conceal that it's research had a military purpose? I can't find anything that says drone projects were originally pitched for aid delivery.

cf141q5325 5y ago
One example were those self destructing drones https://www.zdnet.com/article/darpa-develops-disappearing-delivery-drones-for-emergencies/ https://www.zdnet.com/article/darpa-develops-disappearing-de... > Announced this month, the US research agency said Project Icarus will create a fleet of tiny, single-use drones which will deliver emergency supplies -- such as food and medicine -- to remote areas during epidemics or disasters. > However, once their mission is over, each drone will "vanish" after landing thanks to the use of special materials which can transform their state or shatter into mere particles. I however remembered it more in the context of this one https://www.darpa.mil/news-events/2017-06-28 https://www.darpa.mil/news-events/2017-06-28 >Under the FLA program, the only human input required is the target or objective for the UAV to search for—which could be in the form of a digital photograph uploaded to the onboard computer before flight—as well as the estimated direction and distance to the target. Neither autonomous targeting of specific individuals nor the capability to "vanish" are something that has much application in disaster relief. Its the evolution of slaughterbots.

kjgkjhfkjf 5y ago

"NEAT would identify psychological and behavioral changes before they impact military readiness." I think the idea is to identify soldiers and other personnel who are at risk of becoming suicidal during a military operation. This seems like a good idea to me, given the extent that the safety of soldiers depends on the mental acuity of their colleagues.

zwkrt 5y ago
On the other hand, if I had this technology and was sufficiently antisocial, I could use it to keep an 'interrogation subject' right on the edge of killing themselves for an extended period of time. I could use it to recruit soldiers for fatalistic operations. I could use it to kick out members of any operation whose moral compunction was detected to be causing them too much distress.
- kjgkjhfkjf 5y ago
  Yes, it's possible to find appalling uses of most things.
0xdeadb00f 5y ago
Or it could be a way for them to fire suspicious, defiant, or personell they suspect are whistleblowers, without any questions asked.
cf141q5325 5y ago
They are >aggregating preconscious brain signals to determine what someone believes to be true. Its a terrorism divining rod. That needs zero change to be used for detecting simple opposition as well.