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Congestion pricing is one of those policies that can greatly benefit society, but causes so much anger that it’s very hard to implement.

brimble 5y ago
I think it bothers people when they're not getting to choose when or where they drive, which is much of the time (commute, taking kids to school, that kind of thing). It feels like being punished for decisions other people made.
autoexec 5y ago
I don't think punishing people for wanting to get somewhere is a benefit for society. Congestion is a failure of the infrastructure to efficiently meet demand, not the fault of people for simply wanting things when others also want them. Instead of punishing individuals who already suffer by being stuck using ineffective systems that can't handle the load, a far better solution would be updating those systems or replacing them with something that can adequately handle the traffic at its peak.
- fshbbdssbbgdd 5y ago
  Certainly, we should upgrade our infrastructure to improve capacity. Due to induced demand, there will still be traffic at peak times. Congestion pricing can shape demand to improve utilization and reduce travel times, which improves the ROI of those investments.
  - autoexec 5y ago
    I think most people would rather not deal with excessive traffic and crowded roads and wouldn't if given the choice. Many just don't really get much choice in the commuting patterns they have. If your job requires you to be somewhere at a specific time, you're going to go. If you have to pick up your kid at a specific place and time you'll be there. Most of us are already constantly trying to optimize for less traffic and travel time. Those of us with limited options to do that suffer enough as it is. Adding more pain to those with few, if any, other options isn't helping. Better to update existing roads, improve alternate routes, and if needed build new roads to attract people away from over-crowded ones (peak times or not). Give people better alternatives and I promise they'll take them. We're now routinely using satellites to try to find ways to avoid traffic congestion. We all want it so badly we're resorting to space computers for help! This clearly isn't something you have beat people with a stick to do and it does no good to punish the people who don't have better alternatives available. We really can just put away the stick.
- bduerst 5y ago
  The difference in the costs of the solutions you're talking about are to the order of many magnitudes. Congestion pricing is a quick fix that is not a punishment, because everyone would be waiting in traffic anyways. Opening up the extra lanes to all would only increase wait times for all with induced demand. But like GP said, the fix especially angers people.
  - autoexec 5y ago
    > Congestion pricing is a quick fix It doesn't actually fix the problem. The problem is that people can't get to where they want to go without difficulty because of inadequate planning/maintenance. Congestion pricing just changes the nature of that difficulty. People will still be negatively impacted, either by additional delays caused by having to select longer routes to where they're headed (when that's even an option) or by suffering financial penalties for something that is no fault of their own. Fixing the problem means actually updating and maintaining roadways to accommodate demand (something that should already be the norm/expectation for every road built) and doing a better job planning for increased demand in the future so that the government isn't caught off guard and can budget accordingly to handle those costs and needs quickly. Yes, actually fixing the problem once they've screwed up costs a lot of money, and it's true that congestion pricing could help pay for that (assuming that 100% of all money collected goes to that effort and nothing else), but in the meantime drivers continue to be negatively impacted, traffic forced to alternate longer routes will waste gas, hurt the environment, cause more wear on people's vesicles, cause increased wear and congestion on those alternate roads, and the administration/overhead of congestion pricing eats into every penny you earn towards something that should have been budgeted for and paid for by our taxes in the first place. If the question is "How best to pay for what we should have been doing already" it's so much faster, and easier to get the funds needed to properly manage/maintain public roads by collecting a very small amount of money from a very a large number of people on the promise that they will be able to drive on any public road anywhere without needless difficulty, than it is to only collect funds from a very small number of people over a much much longer period of time while also inconveniencing every driver and pushing problems onto surrounding areas.
    - 5y ago

brimble 5y ago

I think it bothers people when they're not getting to choose when or where they drive, which is much of the time (commute, taking kids to school, that kind of thing). It feels like being punished for decisions other people made.

autoexec 5y ago

I don't think punishing people for wanting to get somewhere is a benefit for society. Congestion is a failure of the infrastructure to efficiently meet demand, not the fault of people for simply wanting things when others also want them. Instead of punishing individuals who already suffer by being stuck using ineffective systems that can't handle the load, a far better solution would be updating those systems or replacing them with something that can adequately handle the traffic at its peak.

fshbbdssbbgdd 5y ago
Certainly, we should upgrade our infrastructure to improve capacity. Due to induced demand, there will still be traffic at peak times. Congestion pricing can shape demand to improve utilization and reduce travel times, which improves the ROI of those investments.
- autoexec 5y ago
  I think most people would rather not deal with excessive traffic and crowded roads and wouldn't if given the choice. Many just don't really get much choice in the commuting patterns they have. If your job requires you to be somewhere at a specific time, you're going to go. If you have to pick up your kid at a specific place and time you'll be there. Most of us are already constantly trying to optimize for less traffic and travel time. Those of us with limited options to do that suffer enough as it is. Adding more pain to those with few, if any, other options isn't helping. Better to update existing roads, improve alternate routes, and if needed build new roads to attract people away from over-crowded ones (peak times or not). Give people better alternatives and I promise they'll take them. We're now routinely using satellites to try to find ways to avoid traffic congestion. We all want it so badly we're resorting to space computers for help! This clearly isn't something you have beat people with a stick to do and it does no good to punish the people who don't have better alternatives available. We really can just put away the stick.
bduerst 5y ago
The difference in the costs of the solutions you're talking about are to the order of many magnitudes. Congestion pricing is a quick fix that is not a punishment, because everyone would be waiting in traffic anyways. Opening up the extra lanes to all would only increase wait times for all with induced demand. But like GP said, the fix especially angers people.
- autoexec 5y ago
  > Congestion pricing is a quick fix It doesn't actually fix the problem. The problem is that people can't get to where they want to go without difficulty because of inadequate planning/maintenance. Congestion pricing just changes the nature of that difficulty. People will still be negatively impacted, either by additional delays caused by having to select longer routes to where they're headed (when that's even an option) or by suffering financial penalties for something that is no fault of their own. Fixing the problem means actually updating and maintaining roadways to accommodate demand (something that should already be the norm/expectation for every road built) and doing a better job planning for increased demand in the future so that the government isn't caught off guard and can budget accordingly to handle those costs and needs quickly. Yes, actually fixing the problem once they've screwed up costs a lot of money, and it's true that congestion pricing could help pay for that (assuming that 100% of all money collected goes to that effort and nothing else), but in the meantime drivers continue to be negatively impacted, traffic forced to alternate longer routes will waste gas, hurt the environment, cause more wear on people's vesicles, cause increased wear and congestion on those alternate roads, and the administration/overhead of congestion pricing eats into every penny you earn towards something that should have been budgeted for and paid for by our taxes in the first place. If the question is "How best to pay for what we should have been doing already" it's so much faster, and easier to get the funds needed to properly manage/maintain public roads by collecting a very small amount of money from a very a large number of people on the promise that they will be able to drive on any public road anywhere without needless difficulty, than it is to only collect funds from a very small number of people over a much much longer period of time while also inconveniencing every driver and pushing problems onto surrounding areas.
  - 5y ago