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How many academic scientists end up being buried in managing science, particularly seeking funding? There’s way fewer aristocrats funding scientists as they wo

How many academic scientists end up being buried in managing science, particularly seeking funding? There’s way fewer aristocrats funding scientists as they would a zoo. Maybe the most visible advances come from those hungry enough and with time enough to do it? Some of these older fellows trained a lot of students, such as bethe or wheeler. How old were the bell labs people when they did plan 9? Is Knuth still considered active? Maybe also, art is subjective while physics or engineering “just is”

TheAceOfHearts 5y ago
Ken Thompson was around 49 years old when Plan 9 was first released. Not sure about other people on the Plan 9 team. But presumably they were all highly skilled and experienced engineers. The key question is who were their disciples? How much of their knowledge has been passed down to the next generation?
- jleyank 5y ago
  Everybody who read their books or hacked Unix or Linux could be considered their “students”. Their code was published, eventually, and in any event they left tracks to follow for those recreating it. They created an ideal to strive for, along with the original MIT hackers and those who emulated them at other sites. Remember, it used to be way more collegial working on machines in the early days. Given Unix and C and the rest, they made their dent(s) in the universe and we’re all better for it.
  - morelisp 5y ago
    Most Linux developers (both kernel and userland) seemed to learn very little from Plan 9, except in very limited areas. Other Unix developers, even less. I think it made very little "mindshare progress" until Go and even today it's a (loud, but) minority view in the Go community. I wonder if it ever troubled him he had vastly more influence with the "first draft" than the more refined system.
FastMonkey 5y ago
Agreed, and how many stay on the same or a similar subject for decades? It seems like the great artists he mentioned jumped from one thing to the next, whereas academia seems to incentivize patient deepening of a single furrow.
techas 5y ago
> How many academic scientists end up being buried in managing science, particularly seeking funding? Today?? 100% of successful scientists.
- 21723 5y ago
  This. When we look at the Soviet system, we don't think of it as having had much in the way of scientific or artistic accomplishments. There were some, and the practical engineering and economic achievements were nothing to sneeze at, but by and large the Soviet era is seen as somewhat of a dark age in terms of humanistic advancement, as indeed it was intended to be a transitional stage before communism, which the Soviets admitted had not been achieved. Our period is worse. We have the same stultifying bureaucracies, governmental and corporate, but with more advanced surveillance technologies. And while a 1980s Soviet bureaucrat might have been indifferent to excellence, 2020s corporate executives and venture capitalists and war barons are actively hostile to it, because it threatens their positions. In our era, we seem to have everything, but we are producing next to nothing, and we have gone from being one of the best-run to one of the worst-run societies in record time.
  - achenet 5y ago
    It ain't that bad. We have the internet, that's pretty neat, and there's enough good food to feed many people. Yeah you may have some people who are still mentally stuck in the feudal age, and yes it would be nicer if they got with the times are started trying to actually be useful instead of playing idiotic status games like chimps in suits, but I think by and large humanity does manage to produce nice things in spite of them. For example - this website. ^_^

TheAceOfHearts 5y ago

Ken Thompson was around 49 years old when Plan 9 was first released. Not sure about other people on the Plan 9 team. But presumably they were all highly skilled and experienced engineers. The key question is who were their disciples? How much of their knowledge has been passed down to the next generation?

jleyank 5y ago
Everybody who read their books or hacked Unix or Linux could be considered their “students”. Their code was published, eventually, and in any event they left tracks to follow for those recreating it. They created an ideal to strive for, along with the original MIT hackers and those who emulated them at other sites. Remember, it used to be way more collegial working on machines in the early days. Given Unix and C and the rest, they made their dent(s) in the universe and we’re all better for it.
- morelisp 5y ago
  Most Linux developers (both kernel and userland) seemed to learn very little from Plan 9, except in very limited areas. Other Unix developers, even less. I think it made very little "mindshare progress" until Go and even today it's a (loud, but) minority view in the Go community. I wonder if it ever troubled him he had vastly more influence with the "first draft" than the more refined system.

FastMonkey 5y ago

Agreed, and how many stay on the same or a similar subject for decades? It seems like the great artists he mentioned jumped from one thing to the next, whereas academia seems to incentivize patient deepening of a single furrow.

techas 5y ago

> How many academic scientists end up being buried in managing science, particularly seeking funding? Today?? 100% of successful scientists.

21723 5y ago
This. When we look at the Soviet system, we don't think of it as having had much in the way of scientific or artistic accomplishments. There were some, and the practical engineering and economic achievements were nothing to sneeze at, but by and large the Soviet era is seen as somewhat of a dark age in terms of humanistic advancement, as indeed it was intended to be a transitional stage before communism, which the Soviets admitted had not been achieved. Our period is worse. We have the same stultifying bureaucracies, governmental and corporate, but with more advanced surveillance technologies. And while a 1980s Soviet bureaucrat might have been indifferent to excellence, 2020s corporate executives and venture capitalists and war barons are actively hostile to it, because it threatens their positions. In our era, we seem to have everything, but we are producing next to nothing, and we have gone from being one of the best-run to one of the worst-run societies in record time.
- achenet 5y ago
  It ain't that bad. We have the internet, that's pretty neat, and there's enough good food to feed many people. Yeah you may have some people who are still mentally stuck in the feudal age, and yes it would be nicer if they got with the times are started trying to actually be useful instead of playing idiotic status games like chimps in suits, but I think by and large humanity does manage to produce nice things in spite of them. For example - this website. ^_^