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It is important to recognize that Stripe is largely selling well-made shovels for the gold rush here. They have a history of diving more deeply into this market

It is important to recognize that Stripe is largely selling well-made shovels for the gold rush here. They have a history of diving more deeply into this market [1] and withdrawing from it before [2], so this is just Take 2. This time around, they are not themselves buying Cube Thingies or similar and don't have any exposure to the volatile world of ETH or other coins. I think there will be decent transfer of money from venture-funded NFT startups to Stripe for the next few years, followed by a dip in the market when the startups discover that selling digital art is less of a viable market than they realize. I am personally skeptical about the end market, but Stripe seem well-insulated from the risks. I'm curious what people who are bullish on this think though – what might I be missing about the digital art market? I think paying 12 million pounds for a Renoir is bananas too, but people certainly do it [3]. I just expect digital stuff to be more volatile because it's hard to communicate that combination of artisanship and rarity. On the topic of well-made shovels, I highly recommend the Voile Telepro in HN Orange [4] as a portable snow shovel to keep in your car if you live in a snowy climate. They will probably be on sale in spring and summer. ---------------------------------------- [1] https://web.archive.org/web/20150516061807/https://stripe.com/bitcoin https://web.archive.org/web/20150516061807/https://stripe.co... [2] https://stripe.com/blog/ending-bitcoin-support https://stripe.com/blog/ending-bitcoin-support [3] https://www.christies.com/en/lot/lot-pierre-auguste-renoir-1841-1919-6190579/ https://www.christies.com/en/lot/lot-pierre-auguste-renoir-1... [4] https://snowmetrics.com/shop/voile-shovel/ https://snowmetrics.com/shop/voile-shovel/

vincentmarle 5y ago
> Updated March 10, 2022 Did they just update this after you pointed this out?
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- EE84M3i 5y ago
  For me, Google's cache of the page[1] does not contain that and says a timestamp of 10 Mar 2022 01:35:20 GMT. [1]: https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:cKDBTSBLvgAJ:https://stripe.com/blog/ending-bitcoin-support+&cd=3&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=jp https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:cKDBTS...
  - quadrifoliate 5y ago
    Hm, I thought I saw the update as while when I was looking at the pages; but thinking through it I remember that I was adding links after I posted some of the text. Also, it's quite possible others pointed this out (the Stripe team in general has great attention to detail!) and updated the page.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
wahnfrieden 5y ago
My interest in web3 + art is from finding new livable income sources for artists generally. Less about big money speculation, more about getting more artists supported such that they don’t need a day job or purely commercial art pursuits (as opposed to “fine art”). I understand the current state of crypto isn’t near offering this outside of hyped speculative investments I’m also not interested in ideas on a shelf that could do this better in an alternate reality but aren’t active I also recognize there are uphill battles conceptually for both adopters and builders, such as ownership models where access is not exclusive (which is also not without precedence outside crypto) Not interested in discussing these distractions: the perceived quality of current art, what types of art are more deserving of their artists having a livable income off, ideas on a shelf for solving this at scale in an alternate reality, scam activity, or pretending proof of work chains are state of the art
- goosedragons 5y ago
  I think Patreon and similar is probably a better avenue for digital. More consistent support than selling peices as NFTs or in meat space and with digital I think you're more likely to find 100 people willing to spend $10 for a new wallpaper each month than 1 willing to spend $1000 on an NFT.
  - wahnfrieden 5y ago
    NFTs don’t need to be as expensive as that, that’s only because currently all attention is on high-priced eth ecosystem Patreon is also a huge rent seeker, we can do better for artist direct payment Patreon is not passive income - people expect regular updates and special work/insight for private audience In terms of consistency, meat space has big issues with accessibility and reach Lastly you can look at the results. Patreon is not that widely transformative for giving artists livable income
    - goosedragons 5y ago
      I never said Patreon is passive income but it's consistent. The artist gets money for their output every month. People are only going to pay so long as they feel they get value. Unlike a subscription for rarely updated software you can still use that Wallpaper you got from being a patreon even if you're not subbed anymore. NFTs aren't passive either nor are they consistent. The whole point of NFTs is the scarcity aspect. Sure, you could maybe do 100 $10 NFT "prints" instead but now they need to manage that aspect and predict demand. NFTs mimic the meat space art world with all the same problems like infrequent unpredictable sales with few benefits like convenience.
deleted 5y ago
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drdrey 5y ago
Why do you limit your scope to digital art? There are plenty of other potential applications, from tickets, music and gaming to gumroad-like marketplaces
- VHRanger 5y ago
  This had been discussed a lot of times. All of those proposed uses are better served by regular databases When crypto proposes something that *is*, rather than something that *could be* people will stop considering it as a big casino.
  - z3c0 5y ago
    > All those proposed uses are better served by databases I've often wondered how NFT's would fare in a situation like Diablo 3's colossal failure of a marketplace, where people could sell their rare items to other players. The whole concept broke, because "rare" doesn't mean anything when players can just flood the market with weapons created via modding. This seems to be exactly the use case NFT's are made for. For the record - as a digital photographer - I find NFT's for art to be a laughable concept. Keeping possession of my raw files has always been a sufficient means of copy protection for me.
hemantv 5y ago
It's high spread market. Any financial firms are salivating at how to take advantage and profit from it. Coinbase whole business is spreads.
- TacticalCoder 5y ago
  > Coinbase whole business is spreads. Coinbase collects fees. Even if the spread is minimal (I think Bitcoin goes to something silly like 8 decimals but even for a book in USD, the bid/ask spread may be 39 842.54 vs 39 482.55, so a spread of one cent), Coinbase still takes a fee on every trade. And they take a fee from both the buyer and the seller. I'm not sure their business is related to spreads.
wmf 5y ago
Stripe is largely selling well-made shovels for the gold rush here. ... This time around, they ... don't have any exposure to the volatile world of ETH or other coins. Which is... even more evil? They're encouraging an externality which harms normal people but not them.
- dmead 5y ago
  It was also safer to sell shovels in san francisco than it was to go to the Klondike and dig for gold. the analogy is correct.
- MathCodeLove 5y ago
  They're not encouraging crypto anymore than a liquor store encourages alcoholism. The liquor store may lower the barrier to entry for obtaining a bottle of alcohol, but it's ultimately the alcoholics choice to enter the store and purchase it. Offering a product is not evil or immoral. It may be amoral but that's not the same as immoral. Ultimately the market decides what stays and goes except in extraordinary circumstances.
  - newswasboring 5y ago
    You are conflating logistics with morality. The market will provide argument may make sense logistically but that does not mean its morality.
    - MathCodeLove 5y ago
      Logistics is something else entirely. Any consumer driven market is strongly indicative of its consumers morality, people just don't like to admit it.
      - newswasboring 5y ago
        What I meant to say was just because people want something doesn't mean its moral to provide it. People want tobacco, doesn't mean we have to make it super easy and addictive for them.
csomar 5y ago
I have a friend of a friend who has a really low salary (think less than $500/month - third-world country) who spends 1/3 of his income on LoL digital items. Knowing that really changed my perspective on the viability of NFT. It's more addictive than digital stuff that you buy but can't sell. Now you can buy to maybe sell for a higher price in the future. That should increase engagement and the user base. It is still a very particular behavior that only a small fraction of society engages in. But there is 6.6Bn smartphone users in this world. If a tiny 0.1% of the population buys/sells NFT for fun and addition, that's still 6.6 million user. That's billions of $$ pumped into the NFT economy and dozens of billions of "value" for these digital items. The world is crazy once you go from the local scale to the global scale.
- Gwypaas 5y ago
  It's really attempt 2.0 and some sprinkles of "you may get rich" on the steam market with a hugely more inefficient system, which you can't even showcase in game to your friends. All the while the gas fees causing a constant drain on any transaction. Try looking how many pages you need click through before you emerge from the minimum $0.03. The market for digital "art" is a hard one, because scarcity can only centrally be enforced. https://steamcommunity.com/market/search?appid=730#p1_price_asc https://steamcommunity.com/market/search?appid=730#p1_price_...
OrlandoHakim 5y ago
Speaking as someone who has worked in the crypto space, I tend to agree. This play is about offering well-made shovels to the industry. The regulatory hurdles of getting into or out of fiat from crypto make it nearly impossible for all but the biggest players due to Money Service Business laws in each of the 50 states let alone internationally. As such this is a regulatory arbitrage play and one that will be welcomed by the industry as it is currently filled with extremely expensive options (Looking at you Prime Trust) and predatory actors. Stripe can clean up here in the short term if their product offers fair and transparent pricing to industry as is their brand. I do suspect they will stick around this time as the number of players has grown and the US government looks like it is finally ready to embrace the industry and bring some much needed regulatory clarity.

vincentmarle 5y ago

> Updated March 10, 2022 Did they just update this after you pointed this out?

deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
EE84M3i 5y ago
For me, Google's cache of the page[1] does not contain that and says a timestamp of 10 Mar 2022 01:35:20 GMT. [1]: https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:cKDBTSBLvgAJ:https://stripe.com/blog/ending-bitcoin-support+&cd=3&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=jp https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:cKDBTS...
- quadrifoliate 5y ago
  Hm, I thought I saw the update as while when I was looking at the pages; but thinking through it I remember that I was adding links after I posted some of the text. Also, it's quite possible others pointed this out (the Stripe team in general has great attention to detail!) and updated the page.

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

wahnfrieden 5y ago

My interest in web3 + art is from finding new livable income sources for artists generally. Less about big money speculation, more about getting more artists supported such that they don’t need a day job or purely commercial art pursuits (as opposed to “fine art”). I understand the current state of crypto isn’t near offering this outside of hyped speculative investments I’m also not interested in ideas on a shelf that could do this better in an alternate reality but aren’t active I also recognize there are uphill battles conceptually for both adopters and builders, such as ownership models where access is not exclusive (which is also not without precedence outside crypto) Not interested in discussing these distractions: the perceived quality of current art, what types of art are more deserving of their artists having a livable income off, ideas on a shelf for solving this at scale in an alternate reality, scam activity, or pretending proof of work chains are state of the art

goosedragons 5y ago
I think Patreon and similar is probably a better avenue for digital. More consistent support than selling peices as NFTs or in meat space and with digital I think you're more likely to find 100 people willing to spend $10 for a new wallpaper each month than 1 willing to spend $1000 on an NFT.
- wahnfrieden 5y ago
  NFTs don’t need to be as expensive as that, that’s only because currently all attention is on high-priced eth ecosystem Patreon is also a huge rent seeker, we can do better for artist direct payment Patreon is not passive income - people expect regular updates and special work/insight for private audience In terms of consistency, meat space has big issues with accessibility and reach Lastly you can look at the results. Patreon is not that widely transformative for giving artists livable income
  - goosedragons 5y ago
    I never said Patreon is passive income but it's consistent. The artist gets money for their output every month. People are only going to pay so long as they feel they get value. Unlike a subscription for rarely updated software you can still use that Wallpaper you got from being a patreon even if you're not subbed anymore. NFTs aren't passive either nor are they consistent. The whole point of NFTs is the scarcity aspect. Sure, you could maybe do 100 $10 NFT "prints" instead but now they need to manage that aspect and predict demand. NFTs mimic the meat space art world with all the same problems like infrequent unpredictable sales with few benefits like convenience.

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

drdrey 5y ago

Why do you limit your scope to digital art? There are plenty of other potential applications, from tickets, music and gaming to gumroad-like marketplaces

VHRanger 5y ago
This had been discussed a lot of times. All of those proposed uses are better served by regular databases When crypto proposes something that *is*, rather than something that *could be* people will stop considering it as a big casino.
- z3c0 5y ago
  > All those proposed uses are better served by databases I've often wondered how NFT's would fare in a situation like Diablo 3's colossal failure of a marketplace, where people could sell their rare items to other players. The whole concept broke, because "rare" doesn't mean anything when players can just flood the market with weapons created via modding. This seems to be exactly the use case NFT's are made for. For the record - as a digital photographer - I find NFT's for art to be a laughable concept. Keeping possession of my raw files has always been a sufficient means of copy protection for me.

hemantv 5y ago

It's high spread market. Any financial firms are salivating at how to take advantage and profit from it. Coinbase whole business is spreads.

TacticalCoder 5y ago
> Coinbase whole business is spreads. Coinbase collects fees. Even if the spread is minimal (I think Bitcoin goes to something silly like 8 decimals but even for a book in USD, the bid/ask spread may be 39 842.54 vs 39 482.55, so a spread of one cent), Coinbase still takes a fee on every trade. And they take a fee from both the buyer and the seller. I'm not sure their business is related to spreads.

wmf 5y ago

Stripe is largely selling well-made shovels for the gold rush here. ... This time around, they ... don't have any exposure to the volatile world of ETH or other coins. Which is... even more evil? They're encouraging an externality which harms normal people but not them.

dmead 5y ago
It was also safer to sell shovels in san francisco than it was to go to the Klondike and dig for gold. the analogy is correct.
MathCodeLove 5y ago
They're not encouraging crypto anymore than a liquor store encourages alcoholism. The liquor store may lower the barrier to entry for obtaining a bottle of alcohol, but it's ultimately the alcoholics choice to enter the store and purchase it. Offering a product is not evil or immoral. It may be amoral but that's not the same as immoral. Ultimately the market decides what stays and goes except in extraordinary circumstances.
- newswasboring 5y ago
  You are conflating logistics with morality. The market will provide argument may make sense logistically but that does not mean its morality.
  - MathCodeLove 5y ago
    Logistics is something else entirely. Any consumer driven market is strongly indicative of its consumers morality, people just don't like to admit it.
    - newswasboring 5y ago
      What I meant to say was just because people want something doesn't mean its moral to provide it. People want tobacco, doesn't mean we have to make it super easy and addictive for them.

csomar 5y ago

I have a friend of a friend who has a really low salary (think less than $500/month - third-world country) who spends 1/3 of his income on LoL digital items. Knowing that really changed my perspective on the viability of NFT. It's more addictive than digital stuff that you buy but can't sell. Now you can buy to maybe sell for a higher price in the future. That should increase engagement and the user base. It is still a very particular behavior that only a small fraction of society engages in. But there is 6.6Bn smartphone users in this world. If a tiny 0.1% of the population buys/sells NFT for fun and addition, that's still 6.6 million user. That's billions of $$ pumped into the NFT economy and dozens of billions of "value" for these digital items. The world is crazy once you go from the local scale to the global scale.

Gwypaas 5y ago
It's really attempt 2.0 and some sprinkles of "you may get rich" on the steam market with a hugely more inefficient system, which you can't even showcase in game to your friends. All the while the gas fees causing a constant drain on any transaction. Try looking how many pages you need click through before you emerge from the minimum $0.03. The market for digital "art" is a hard one, because scarcity can only centrally be enforced. https://steamcommunity.com/market/search?appid=730#p1_price_asc https://steamcommunity.com/market/search?appid=730#p1_price_...

OrlandoHakim 5y ago

Speaking as someone who has worked in the crypto space, I tend to agree. This play is about offering well-made shovels to the industry. The regulatory hurdles of getting into or out of fiat from crypto make it nearly impossible for all but the biggest players due to Money Service Business laws in each of the 50 states let alone internationally. As such this is a regulatory arbitrage play and one that will be welcomed by the industry as it is currently filled with extremely expensive options (Looking at you Prime Trust) and predatory actors. Stripe can clean up here in the short term if their product offers fair and transparent pricing to industry as is their brand. I do suspect they will stick around this time as the number of players has grown and the US government looks like it is finally ready to embrace the industry and bring some much needed regulatory clarity.