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It's horrible, and I bet all well informed Russians will agree that it is. Who are "they"? I think it is mostly up to a small group of people. I feel it is impo

It's horrible, and I bet all well informed Russians will agree that it is. Who are "they"? I think it is mostly up to a small group of people. I feel it is important to not forget that, and not get lost in hatred and revenge. Which is easy to say from far away from the front, I know.

Schiendelman 5y ago
“Well informed” is doing a lot of work there. The Russian equivalent of the American Republican is cheering this on, regardless of what information they have access to.
- teekert 5y ago
  Because Americans are either Republicans or Democrats? Because you can't both think that the government should perhaps not have a monopoly on weapons AND be pro-choice? And you can't both condemn the war and then argue that Gorbachov was promised that the NATO would not expand and it is a factor in this war? What are you saying here? We are humans and our opinions and ideas fall on continuums in many dimensions. Lets keep talking, to anyone, with respect.
  - Schiendelman 5y ago
    If someone’s a Republican now they’re just nuts. Nothing to do with actual policy preferences anymore, just fake stuff. That’s what I’m referring to.
    - teekert 5y ago
      I have no words for this. It sounds to me like you have just lost it. Either that or your entire country lost it. For god's sake, call anyone that voted republican (why do you even call them "a republican"? Maybe they just didn't like Hillary back when?!) and talk to them with an open mind and be kind. I think that would be the best thing to do for your country right now.
      - Schiendelman 5y ago
        While I appreciate how crazy our country looks from outside, it's not that different from other English-speaking countries right now. There's a set of people whose perception of the world has become completely detached from reality. The vast majority of those people identify with the Republican party.
throwaway894345 5y ago
I fully agree with cautioning people not to get consumed with hate/revenge or to project Putin/supporters' faults on all Russians, but it's quite a bit more complicated even among the folks who "agree that the war is horrible" will, over the course of a few exchanges, begin arguing that western aggression/expansionism forced Putin's hand and he's really just defending Russian sovereignty. Or else they "agree that the war is horrible" but then fixate on how bad the sanctions are and how the west is so awful for imposing those sanctions. So it definitely feels like a lot of the Russians who "agree that the war is horrible" don't really mean it, or at least implicitly think the Ukrainians have it good compared to the sanctioned Russians. Of course, there are Russians who sincerely think the war is horrible--they're out protesting bravely (criticizing the war is punishable by 15 years in prison per a new "misinformation" law); however, few of the Russians I've talked to who "oppose the war" have anything good to say about these protesters.
rich_sasha 5y ago
It is of course true that the "average Russian" is not shelling Mariupol, is not an oligarch, and may not even have voted for Putin. Voting and support numbers showing broad support for Putin, if accurate and genuine, should be seen in the context of Russian propaganda. And yet... this is the first time that Russians experience the anguish they have caused to Central and Eastern Europe over the past 80 years. USSR caused untold misery, to Russians too, but to its non-Russian subjects mostly. Economies were exploited, lives and bones were broken, culture subdued. Attempts to leave USSR be peaceful means were violently quashed, such as in Czechoslovakia in 1968, Hungary in 1956, and lots of smaller events along the way. Pro-USSR sentiment in Russia remains strong, as was support for annexation of Crimea. At some point, "ordinary Russians" need to understand that the "Russian empire" machine they support, by sentiment if not democratic votes, brings misery and destruction to all who stand in its way. In my experience, this sentiment is also not limited to "domestic-only" Russians, who perhaps lack access to "different bias" sources of information. I knew a number of highly educated and intelligent Russians living in the West, who still drank the kool aid. I'm not saying, it's their turn to suffer, but for this reason I'm struggling to muster depths of sympathy.
kilotaras 5y ago
> It's horrible, and I bet all well informed Russians will agree that it is. One of the heavy pregnant woman photographed there has her instagram full of hundreds of Russians calling her a crisis actor, wishing her and her (yet unborn) child death and being raped. [0] That's also the position of Russia MFA [1] [0] https://twitter.com/ComeGentleNight/status/1501900593597718531 https://twitter.com/ComeGentleNight/status/15019005935977185... [1] https://twitter.com/carolecadwalla/status/1501921820437536769 https://twitter.com/carolecadwalla/status/150192182043753676...

Schiendelman 5y ago

“Well informed” is doing a lot of work there. The Russian equivalent of the American Republican is cheering this on, regardless of what information they have access to.

teekert 5y ago
Because Americans are either Republicans or Democrats? Because you can't both think that the government should perhaps not have a monopoly on weapons AND be pro-choice? And you can't both condemn the war and then argue that Gorbachov was promised that the NATO would not expand and it is a factor in this war? What are you saying here? We are humans and our opinions and ideas fall on continuums in many dimensions. Lets keep talking, to anyone, with respect.
- Schiendelman 5y ago
  If someone’s a Republican now they’re just nuts. Nothing to do with actual policy preferences anymore, just fake stuff. That’s what I’m referring to.
  - teekert 5y ago
    I have no words for this. It sounds to me like you have just lost it. Either that or your entire country lost it. For god's sake, call anyone that voted republican (why do you even call them "a republican"? Maybe they just didn't like Hillary back when?!) and talk to them with an open mind and be kind. I think that would be the best thing to do for your country right now.
    - Schiendelman 5y ago
      While I appreciate how crazy our country looks from outside, it's not that different from other English-speaking countries right now. There's a set of people whose perception of the world has become completely detached from reality. The vast majority of those people identify with the Republican party.

throwaway894345 5y ago

I fully agree with cautioning people not to get consumed with hate/revenge or to project Putin/supporters' faults on all Russians, but it's quite a bit more complicated even among the folks who "agree that the war is horrible" will, over the course of a few exchanges, begin arguing that western aggression/expansionism forced Putin's hand and he's really just defending Russian sovereignty. Or else they "agree that the war is horrible" but then fixate on how bad the sanctions are and how the west is so awful for imposing those sanctions. So it definitely feels like a lot of the Russians who "agree that the war is horrible" don't really mean it, or at least implicitly think the Ukrainians have it good compared to the sanctioned Russians. Of course, there are Russians who sincerely think the war is horrible--they're out protesting bravely (criticizing the war is punishable by 15 years in prison per a new "misinformation" law); however, few of the Russians I've talked to who "oppose the war" have anything good to say about these protesters.

rich_sasha 5y ago

It is of course true that the "average Russian" is not shelling Mariupol, is not an oligarch, and may not even have voted for Putin. Voting and support numbers showing broad support for Putin, if accurate and genuine, should be seen in the context of Russian propaganda. And yet... this is the first time that Russians experience the anguish they have caused to Central and Eastern Europe over the past 80 years. USSR caused untold misery, to Russians too, but to its non-Russian subjects mostly. Economies were exploited, lives and bones were broken, culture subdued. Attempts to leave USSR be peaceful means were violently quashed, such as in Czechoslovakia in 1968, Hungary in 1956, and lots of smaller events along the way. Pro-USSR sentiment in Russia remains strong, as was support for annexation of Crimea. At some point, "ordinary Russians" need to understand that the "Russian empire" machine they support, by sentiment if not democratic votes, brings misery and destruction to all who stand in its way. In my experience, this sentiment is also not limited to "domestic-only" Russians, who perhaps lack access to "different bias" sources of information. I knew a number of highly educated and intelligent Russians living in the West, who still drank the kool aid. I'm not saying, it's their turn to suffer, but for this reason I'm struggling to muster depths of sympathy.

kilotaras 5y ago

> It's horrible, and I bet all well informed Russians will agree that it is. One of the heavy pregnant woman photographed there has her instagram full of hundreds of Russians calling her a crisis actor, wishing her and her (yet unborn) child death and being raped. [0] That's also the position of Russia MFA [1] [0] https://twitter.com/ComeGentleNight/status/1501900593597718531 https://twitter.com/ComeGentleNight/status/15019005935977185... [1] https://twitter.com/carolecadwalla/status/1501921820437536769 https://twitter.com/carolecadwalla/status/150192182043753676...