4 ms·

Just checking that you are aware that Putin has been murdering fleeing civilians, targeting health facilities including a maternity ward, and using dumb bombs t

by cols 5y ago

Just checking that you are aware that Putin has been murdering fleeing civilians, targeting health facilities including a maternity ward, and using dumb bombs to level entire cities? At what point does this cross into genocide for you? Edit: People on this thread seem very confused as to what the word 'genocide' means. Here is the definition from un.org. In the present Convention, genocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such: - Killing members of the group; - Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group; - Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part; - Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group; - Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group https://www.un.org/en/genocideprevention/genocide.shtml https://www.un.org/en/genocideprevention/genocide.shtml

School-Cotton 5y ago
It would be genocide if the Russians were murdering a significant chunk of the population in order to eradicate the Ukrainians as a distinct ethnic group. There is no evidence of that happening. Yes, Russia has been committing atrocities. Not all atrocities are genocide.
- cols 5y ago
  Incorrect. See the definition above of genocide as defined by the Genocide Convention.
  - School-Cotton 5y ago
    Your own definition says it has to be an attempt to destroy the group. Killing people from a group doesn’t necessarily mean you are attempting to destroy it. Otherwise all murders would be genocide.
  - lm28469 5y ago
    According to your definition any war is a genocide... what matters is the scale and intent, none of which points to a genocide in Ukraine right now
    - cols 5y ago
      Again, I'm not sure how dumb bombing entire cities that haven't been evacuated, maternity/childrens wards, and fleeing civilians _doesn't_ qualify as genocide, but I guess we will just have to agree to disagree. I think the definition of genocide is very clear and after watching the daily footage from Ukraine, it's quite difficult to make the argument that there isn't intent to wipe out a large portion of the population systematically. Yeah, their names aren't in a spreadsheet maybe, yet, but this is just beginning.
      - ccdan 5y ago
        Well, in the case the atomic bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki are genocide! The all the Americans(still alive) and American state entities responsible for it must be held accountable
      - lm28469 5y ago
        Something can be a war crime AND not a genocide. (I recommend you wikileaks for a list of US war crimes which aren't genocides). Putin invasion is illegal, many war crimes were committed, but it's nowhere close to a genocide. What word will you use for real genocides ? > and after watching the daily footage from Ukraine That's the main issue with this war, people are fed clips after clips of bombings videos, crying civilians, dead soldiers in blood pools &c. It's an information war just as much as it is a regular war If we had the same level of publicity for the invasion or Irak or Afghanistan would you have condemned the US of genocide ? Many more civilians died. Would we have banned the US of swift ? What about the siege of Sarajevo ? genocide committed by nato ? It's a war, did people forget about them ? Civilians always suffer, either directly or indirectly (starvation, exposure, &c.) Unplug, stop watching war porn, read experts reports if you want to keep up to date, don't fall for the news cycle/social media bait. There are 30 or 40 other wars going on in the world right now, all with civilians getting killed, if you want to be outraged every single second of your life feel free to look them up. There even is a real genocide going on for the last 10 years or so in Darfur, have you heard of it ? it's not making the news, 100k to 400k people were killed though > I think the definition of genocide is very clear It is, and no serious source calls this a genocide...
lm28469 5y ago
> At what point does this cross into genocide for you? The point when it enters the definition of the word.... > the deliberate killing of a large number of people from a particular nation or ethnic group with the aim of destroying that nation or group. We're not talking about a few hundred or thousands civilians hit by bombs, we're talking organised and methodical wiping of entire villages/cities/regions The jewish holocaust was a genocide, the Khmer Rouge were conducting a genocide, the Turkish committed a genocide against Armenians, &c. The scale and goals are completely different, what's happening in Ukraine is a war, it's ugly, it's revolting, it's disgusting, it's still "just" a war.

by cols 5y ago

School-Cotton 5y ago

It would be genocide if the Russians were murdering a significant chunk of the population in order to eradicate the Ukrainians as a distinct ethnic group. There is no evidence of that happening. Yes, Russia has been committing atrocities. Not all atrocities are genocide.

cols 5y ago
Incorrect. See the definition above of genocide as defined by the Genocide Convention.
- School-Cotton 5y ago
  Your own definition says it has to be an attempt to destroy the group. Killing people from a group doesn’t necessarily mean you are attempting to destroy it. Otherwise all murders would be genocide.
- lm28469 5y ago
  According to your definition any war is a genocide... what matters is the scale and intent, none of which points to a genocide in Ukraine right now
  - cols 5y ago
    Again, I'm not sure how dumb bombing entire cities that haven't been evacuated, maternity/childrens wards, and fleeing civilians _doesn't_ qualify as genocide, but I guess we will just have to agree to disagree. I think the definition of genocide is very clear and after watching the daily footage from Ukraine, it's quite difficult to make the argument that there isn't intent to wipe out a large portion of the population systematically. Yeah, their names aren't in a spreadsheet maybe, yet, but this is just beginning.
    - ccdan 5y ago
      Well, in the case the atomic bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki are genocide! The all the Americans(still alive) and American state entities responsible for it must be held accountable
    - lm28469 5y ago
      Something can be a war crime AND not a genocide. (I recommend you wikileaks for a list of US war crimes which aren't genocides). Putin invasion is illegal, many war crimes were committed, but it's nowhere close to a genocide. What word will you use for real genocides ? > and after watching the daily footage from Ukraine That's the main issue with this war, people are fed clips after clips of bombings videos, crying civilians, dead soldiers in blood pools &c. It's an information war just as much as it is a regular war If we had the same level of publicity for the invasion or Irak or Afghanistan would you have condemned the US of genocide ? Many more civilians died. Would we have banned the US of swift ? What about the siege of Sarajevo ? genocide committed by nato ? It's a war, did people forget about them ? Civilians always suffer, either directly or indirectly (starvation, exposure, &c.) Unplug, stop watching war porn, read experts reports if you want to keep up to date, don't fall for the news cycle/social media bait. There are 30 or 40 other wars going on in the world right now, all with civilians getting killed, if you want to be outraged every single second of your life feel free to look them up. There even is a real genocide going on for the last 10 years or so in Darfur, have you heard of it ? it's not making the news, 100k to 400k people were killed though > I think the definition of genocide is very clear It is, and no serious source calls this a genocide...

lm28469 5y ago

> At what point does this cross into genocide for you? The point when it enters the definition of the word.... > the deliberate killing of a large number of people from a particular nation or ethnic group with the aim of destroying that nation or group. We're not talking about a few hundred or thousands civilians hit by bombs, we're talking organised and methodical wiping of entire villages/cities/regions The jewish holocaust was a genocide, the Khmer Rouge were conducting a genocide, the Turkish committed a genocide against Armenians, &c. The scale and goals are completely different, what's happening in Ukraine is a war, it's ugly, it's revolting, it's disgusting, it's still "just" a war.