5 ms·

I always say that Types are not there for the truly expert programmer. They are there for the rest of us. It's a lot easier to pick up code and understand it

by kemiller2002 5y ago

I always say that Types are not there for the truly expert programmer. They are there for the rest of us. It's a lot easier to pick up code and understand it when you at least have an inkling as to what a variable or parameters needs to have to function. Can interfaces be confusing, and generics become difficult to read? Yeah of course, but that's not really the problem of static type system, that's a problem with the code. I've generally found if you're doing something where you're thinking "this is just getting the way", you probably need to rethink your approach. Clear is always better than clever.

vlovich123 5y ago
I think "truly expert programmer" is hypothetical. I don't think I encounter many programmers that prefer to eschew typing unless it's a quick one-off script. Typing your code takes maybe 1-10% of the time it takes to right (if that). It provides far more value than tests. Just like Rust's ownership model in the type system provides much better results than C++'s implicit ownership model + tests.
- kemiller2002 5y ago
  That's exactly my point. There are very few people that are real experts, people that can see code and reason everything in their heads with little or no help. There really aren't any. Everyone thinks they are, but they aren't. Having types helps the rest of us understand what is going.
danbruc 5y ago
I always say that Types are not there for the truly expert programmer. They are there for the rest of us. I would say exactly the opposite - beginners pick languages without [much] typing because it is or at least it seems easier to get started. When you step out of toy program territory you will start to appreciate the value of types.
- azangru 5y ago
  > beginners pick languages without [much] typing because it is or at least it seems easier to get started It's hard to tell whether the reason beginners pick languages is because they are not typed or because they are immediately practical (such as javascript, php or python). Christopher Allen's and Julie Moronuki's Haskell Programming from First Principles is targeted at complete beginners. Harvard's CS50, which starts with C (well, Scratch, technically; then C), also targets beginners. You don't see much lisp among beginners, despite the absence of type notation.
  - kazinator 5y ago
    > It's hard to tell whether the reason beginners pick languages is because they are not typed No, it is not hard to tell. Programming beginners positively do not choose languages by evaluating concepts that they have no clue about. > You don't see much lisp among beginners, despite the absence of type notation. Lisps are simply not widely promoted to beginners; there aren't enough people to do that. Beginners end up learning whatever is thrust at them most frequently and loudly. Basically, the non-beginners more or less decide that for the beginners.
brimble 5y ago
> I always say that Types are not there for the truly expert programmer. Machine-verifiable documentation about the intended I/O of functions and shapes of structs and objects is hugely fucking valuable to everyone. Your documentation isn't good enough if it doesn't include that, so it may as well be in a format that a machine can read, validate, and use to help out every single person who ever has to read or touch that code.
chousuke 5y ago
no-one is a truly expert programmer 100% of the time. Types catch a lot of stupid errors that anyone can make, regardless of skill level. They also localize guarantees. If your data has a type, you don't need to understand the full path it took to arrive in your function to be able to work with it. With dynamic types, you can only hope that a value has the type you need unless you explicitly check every time.

vlovich123 5y ago

I think "truly expert programmer" is hypothetical. I don't think I encounter many programmers that prefer to eschew typing unless it's a quick one-off script. Typing your code takes maybe 1-10% of the time it takes to right (if that). It provides far more value than tests. Just like Rust's ownership model in the type system provides much better results than C++'s implicit ownership model + tests.

kemiller2002 5y ago
That's exactly my point. There are very few people that are real experts, people that can see code and reason everything in their heads with little or no help. There really aren't any. Everyone thinks they are, but they aren't. Having types helps the rest of us understand what is going.

danbruc 5y ago

I always say that Types are not there for the truly expert programmer. They are there for the rest of us. I would say exactly the opposite - beginners pick languages without [much] typing because it is or at least it seems easier to get started. When you step out of toy program territory you will start to appreciate the value of types.

azangru 5y ago
> beginners pick languages without [much] typing because it is or at least it seems easier to get started It's hard to tell whether the reason beginners pick languages is because they are not typed or because they are immediately practical (such as javascript, php or python). Christopher Allen's and Julie Moronuki's Haskell Programming from First Principles is targeted at complete beginners. Harvard's CS50, which starts with C (well, Scratch, technically; then C), also targets beginners. You don't see much lisp among beginners, despite the absence of type notation.
- kazinator 5y ago
  > It's hard to tell whether the reason beginners pick languages is because they are not typed No, it is not hard to tell. Programming beginners positively do not choose languages by evaluating concepts that they have no clue about. > You don't see much lisp among beginners, despite the absence of type notation. Lisps are simply not widely promoted to beginners; there aren't enough people to do that. Beginners end up learning whatever is thrust at them most frequently and loudly. Basically, the non-beginners more or less decide that for the beginners.

brimble 5y ago

> I always say that Types are not there for the truly expert programmer. Machine-verifiable documentation about the intended I/O of functions and shapes of structs and objects is hugely fucking valuable to everyone. Your documentation isn't good enough if it doesn't include that, so it may as well be in a format that a machine can read, validate, and use to help out every single person who ever has to read or touch that code.

chousuke 5y ago

no-one is a truly expert programmer 100% of the time. Types catch a lot of stupid errors that anyone can make, regardless of skill level. They also localize guarantees. If your data has a type, you don't need to understand the full path it took to arrive in your function to be able to work with it. With dynamic types, you can only hope that a value has the type you need unless you explicitly check every time.