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The toll on "sleep quality" has been debunked [1]. The original research only found ANY connection between screen usage in the evening and sleep in Teens. And n

The toll on "sleep quality" has been debunked [1]. The original research only found ANY connection between screen usage in the evening and sleep in Teens. And no separate connection to Blue light or any other colour... [1] https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2019/12/191216173654.htm https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2019/12/191216173654.h...

kmlx 5y ago
> According to the team, using dim, cooler, lights in the evening and bright warmer lights in the day may be more beneficial to our health. so it's actually the opposite to the current common belief. it should be blue at night, warm during the day :)
Karawebnetwork 5y ago
"Contrary to common belief, blue light may not be as disruptive to our sleep patterns as originally thought" Emphasis on "may". "Our findings suggest that using dim, cooler, lights in the evening and bright warmer lights in the day may be more beneficial." Emphasis on "suggests". Also, the study's title itself. "Cones Support Alignment to an Inconsistent World by Suppressing Mouse Circadian Responses to the Blue Colors Associated with Twilight." Emphasis on "mouse". Science oozes back and forth. You should not strongly interpret individual studies. Debunked is a strong word here.
- mynameisvlad 5y ago
  I mean, the same can be said about your comment. You’re strongly interpreting the results the other way (ie by trying to discredit them implicitly). The current study has has not found links between cool light at night and sleep patterns. That may change in the future, sure, but current science suggests said theory is debunked (and I’m not afraid to use that word).
  - janto 5y ago
    Wondering if you would you say that the proposition has been falsified? Because debunked means falsified.
  - belval 5y ago
    To be pedantic, I think the issue is more with the word itself. "Debunk" implies "expose the falseness or hollowness of (a myth, idea, or belief)" which is too strong when it comes to a study, especially when it doesn't itself claim to "debunk" anything. Maybe we could say the theory is "weakened" by the new evidence or that it is now more "controversial" than it was before. "Debunk" sounds like blue light having an impact or circadian rhythm is some random "fake news" that could be found on Facebook, when it is still backed by some decent evidence.
    - Maxburn 5y ago
      Debunked or not I personally haven't seen it make a difference in sleep. But it DOES make these screens much more pleasant to the eye in dusk/evening hours. I'm a fan.
  - Karawebnetwork 5y ago
    I use the same tone as the authors of the study. I have not added my own views on the subject, but merely highlighted existing words that seem to have been overlooked by some who have only read the news briefs and not the full study itself. From the conclusion: "An especially pertinent question, however, is whether the effects of color described here extend to other mammals, such as humans." The word "debunk" does not appear on any of the 13 pages of text.
    - mynameisvlad 5y ago
      > The word "debunk" does not appear on any of the 13 pages of text. Who said the word appeared in the text? Who said the word has to appear in the text for it to be used in discussions among people? > I have not added my own views on the subject, but merely highlighted existing words that seem to have been overlooked by some who have only read the news briefs and not the full study itself. The words were not emphasized in the paper itself. You chose to explicitly point out certain things in order to discredit the comment you were replying to. You know exactly how your comment comes off, and by doing it you, indeed, add your own views to the subject.
      - Karawebnetwork 5y ago
        "An especially pertinent question, however, is whether the effects of color described here extend to other mammals, such as humans." =\= "The effects of color described here extend to other mammals, such as humans." The first is in the text. The second is an interpretation of the text. Dismissing the content of a scientific article and replacing the existing words to support your own interpretation of the text is exactly adding your own views on the subject. This study is but one step in the scientific process towards verifying this fact. Hopefully, the next step is taken soon and the theory is tested on humans. Should that next paper conclude with "Blue light is not disruptive to human sleep patterns", then I would absolutely agree that debunking has been had. In fact, since you are pushing to know my own views, I would be thrilled about it. Issues with sleep quality is something that affects me and having a concrete answer about the subject at hand would allow me to make better and more enlightened choices about steps to improve my sleep quality. But this is not the case here, right now this would be selling the skin before having caught the bear. Is this a good moment to slow down, analyse and ponder? Absolutely. Do test out if f.lux actually has an effect on you if you are a daily user. Do try to use another color than red in your Philips Hue sleep routine. But now is not the time to take direct actions. ... Let's step back for a minute and imagine we were talking about a study about medication. Let's say that an animal study came out that concluded with "An especially pertinent question, however, is whether the toxicity of acetaminophen extend to other mammals, such as humans." I would without a doubt leave a comment highlighting the content of the paper to show the commenter that no, an animal study should not be strongly interpreted as debunking the safety of acetaminophen in humans. Would you also write: "You chose to explicitly point out certain things in order to discredit the comment you were replying to. You know exactly how your comment comes off, and by doing it you, indeed, add your own views to the subject" in that situation?
- KaiserPro 5y ago
  > Science oozes back and forth. Not really. The point is this, the whole blue light business popped up because the people who were doing the studies forgot that amber dusks are fairly rare outside of cities/equator. Those of us nearer the poles have long, blue evenings. Yes, in march and august we tend to have brilliant orange sunsets. However those are the exceptions, not the rule. If you look at the colour temperature from noon till actual dusk, you'll see that it increases as time goes on. pinning screen colour on the quality of sleep is a fools errand. We do not look at a screen for it's colour we look at for its content. That content has a much great effect on our sleep than the screen brightness and colour temperature. TLDR: twilight is blue, not orange. Colour temperature and sleep quality is not convincingly linked.
  - johnisgood 5y ago
    You do not have to be looking at a screen for its color for it to affect you, methinks. That said, there is huge business from it. Same with the common saying from optometrists to parents that you have to replace your glasses (lenses at the very least) every 1-2 years. It is bullshit. It actually makes your eyes worse because it makes it work harder. If you are at -4, and you would need -5 to see sharp, do NOT get that -5, you can train your eyes to see sharper, but regardless, by getting that -5, your vision will only continue worsening. You need glasses to see your screen? Try looking at it for an hour without it. You will actually see it a tiny bit better without glasses, and that is just after an hour! Your eyes might relax a bit too much as well so you might get diplopia when you look close (at your phone screen) after looking at your monitor without glasses. It is harmless though. As for the warmer color temperature: I do use it. I prefer it warmer because it burns my eyes much less. Similarly I prefer the brightness of my phone's screen around 40%. I have lenses that "block" blue light (i.e. makes white look more yellow). If you are a developer doing UI/UX and that sort of thing where color matters, then you probably want to disable f.lux, redshift, or whatever it is that you are using. We could also get philosophical here and discuss qualia. Is my red your red? :) So much to discuss!
hackernewds 5y ago
Ah so it is about the brightness of the screen and not the warmth? For some reason, warm colors also seem less brighter and harsh though - intuitively for me, I'd say Night shift/mode do work. YMMV
pmarreck 5y ago
how about permanent damage over time from blue wavelengths possibly leading to macular degeneration? https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4734149/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4734149/
- moate 5y ago
  This sub-thread seems to be about dunking on the sleep claims. Nobody seems to be doubting the effects on ocular health.
  - jrm4 5y ago
    Which is weird because it would seem quite reasonable to assume that removing something that very likely negatively affected health would also improve sleep. Stop eating junk food before bed? Probably better sleep. Stop getting poked with a stick before bed? Probably better sleep. Etc.
Weebs 5y ago
I know this is anecdotal but tools like f.lux made a huge different for me. I grew up with difficulties falling asleep and blue light filters like f.lux made an immediate impact on my ability to fall asleep on time. I was no longer in my teens at the time so that may be a factor
Drew_ 5y ago
The comment you replied to made no mention of blue light, only "ultra high brightness screens" which the research you linked does not disagree with.
herf 5y ago
That is one interesting study in mice, but it goes against many in humans, so I wouldn't use the word "debunked" in this situation. Previous comments are here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21916679 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21916679

kmlx 5y ago

> According to the team, using dim, cooler, lights in the evening and bright warmer lights in the day may be more beneficial to our health. so it's actually the opposite to the current common belief. it should be blue at night, warm during the day :)

Karawebnetwork 5y ago

"Contrary to common belief, blue light may not be as disruptive to our sleep patterns as originally thought" Emphasis on "may". "Our findings suggest that using dim, cooler, lights in the evening and bright warmer lights in the day may be more beneficial." Emphasis on "suggests". Also, the study's title itself. "Cones Support Alignment to an Inconsistent World by Suppressing Mouse Circadian Responses to the Blue Colors Associated with Twilight." Emphasis on "mouse". Science oozes back and forth. You should not strongly interpret individual studies. Debunked is a strong word here.

mynameisvlad 5y ago
I mean, the same can be said about your comment. You’re strongly interpreting the results the other way (ie by trying to discredit them implicitly). The current study has has not found links between cool light at night and sleep patterns. That may change in the future, sure, but current science suggests said theory is debunked (and I’m not afraid to use that word).
- janto 5y ago
  Wondering if you would you say that the proposition has been falsified? Because debunked means falsified.
- belval 5y ago
  To be pedantic, I think the issue is more with the word itself. "Debunk" implies "expose the falseness or hollowness of (a myth, idea, or belief)" which is too strong when it comes to a study, especially when it doesn't itself claim to "debunk" anything. Maybe we could say the theory is "weakened" by the new evidence or that it is now more "controversial" than it was before. "Debunk" sounds like blue light having an impact or circadian rhythm is some random "fake news" that could be found on Facebook, when it is still backed by some decent evidence.
  - Maxburn 5y ago
    Debunked or not I personally haven't seen it make a difference in sleep. But it DOES make these screens much more pleasant to the eye in dusk/evening hours. I'm a fan.
- Karawebnetwork 5y ago
  I use the same tone as the authors of the study. I have not added my own views on the subject, but merely highlighted existing words that seem to have been overlooked by some who have only read the news briefs and not the full study itself. From the conclusion: "An especially pertinent question, however, is whether the effects of color described here extend to other mammals, such as humans." The word "debunk" does not appear on any of the 13 pages of text.
  - mynameisvlad 5y ago
    > The word "debunk" does not appear on any of the 13 pages of text. Who said the word appeared in the text? Who said the word has to appear in the text for it to be used in discussions among people? > I have not added my own views on the subject, but merely highlighted existing words that seem to have been overlooked by some who have only read the news briefs and not the full study itself. The words were not emphasized in the paper itself. You chose to explicitly point out certain things in order to discredit the comment you were replying to. You know exactly how your comment comes off, and by doing it you, indeed, add your own views to the subject.
    - Karawebnetwork 5y ago
      "An especially pertinent question, however, is whether the effects of color described here extend to other mammals, such as humans." =\= "The effects of color described here extend to other mammals, such as humans." The first is in the text. The second is an interpretation of the text. Dismissing the content of a scientific article and replacing the existing words to support your own interpretation of the text is exactly adding your own views on the subject. This study is but one step in the scientific process towards verifying this fact. Hopefully, the next step is taken soon and the theory is tested on humans. Should that next paper conclude with "Blue light is not disruptive to human sleep patterns", then I would absolutely agree that debunking has been had. In fact, since you are pushing to know my own views, I would be thrilled about it. Issues with sleep quality is something that affects me and having a concrete answer about the subject at hand would allow me to make better and more enlightened choices about steps to improve my sleep quality. But this is not the case here, right now this would be selling the skin before having caught the bear. Is this a good moment to slow down, analyse and ponder? Absolutely. Do test out if f.lux actually has an effect on you if you are a daily user. Do try to use another color than red in your Philips Hue sleep routine. But now is not the time to take direct actions. ... Let's step back for a minute and imagine we were talking about a study about medication. Let's say that an animal study came out that concluded with "An especially pertinent question, however, is whether the toxicity of acetaminophen extend to other mammals, such as humans." I would without a doubt leave a comment highlighting the content of the paper to show the commenter that no, an animal study should not be strongly interpreted as debunking the safety of acetaminophen in humans. Would you also write: "You chose to explicitly point out certain things in order to discredit the comment you were replying to. You know exactly how your comment comes off, and by doing it you, indeed, add your own views to the subject" in that situation?
KaiserPro 5y ago
> Science oozes back and forth. Not really. The point is this, the whole blue light business popped up because the people who were doing the studies forgot that amber dusks are fairly rare outside of cities/equator. Those of us nearer the poles have long, blue evenings. Yes, in march and august we tend to have brilliant orange sunsets. However those are the exceptions, not the rule. If you look at the colour temperature from noon till actual dusk, you'll see that it increases as time goes on. pinning screen colour on the quality of sleep is a fools errand. We do not look at a screen for it's colour we look at for its content. That content has a much great effect on our sleep than the screen brightness and colour temperature. TLDR: twilight is blue, not orange. Colour temperature and sleep quality is not convincingly linked.
- johnisgood 5y ago
  You do not have to be looking at a screen for its color for it to affect you, methinks. That said, there is huge business from it. Same with the common saying from optometrists to parents that you have to replace your glasses (lenses at the very least) every 1-2 years. It is bullshit. It actually makes your eyes worse because it makes it work harder. If you are at -4, and you would need -5 to see sharp, do NOT get that -5, you can train your eyes to see sharper, but regardless, by getting that -5, your vision will only continue worsening. You need glasses to see your screen? Try looking at it for an hour without it. You will actually see it a tiny bit better without glasses, and that is just after an hour! Your eyes might relax a bit too much as well so you might get diplopia when you look close (at your phone screen) after looking at your monitor without glasses. It is harmless though. As for the warmer color temperature: I do use it. I prefer it warmer because it burns my eyes much less. Similarly I prefer the brightness of my phone's screen around 40%. I have lenses that "block" blue light (i.e. makes white look more yellow). If you are a developer doing UI/UX and that sort of thing where color matters, then you probably want to disable f.lux, redshift, or whatever it is that you are using. We could also get philosophical here and discuss qualia. Is my red your red? :) So much to discuss!

hackernewds 5y ago

Ah so it is about the brightness of the screen and not the warmth? For some reason, warm colors also seem less brighter and harsh though - intuitively for me, I'd say Night shift/mode do work. YMMV

pmarreck 5y ago

how about permanent damage over time from blue wavelengths possibly leading to macular degeneration? https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4734149/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4734149/

moate 5y ago
This sub-thread seems to be about dunking on the sleep claims. Nobody seems to be doubting the effects on ocular health.
- jrm4 5y ago
  Which is weird because it would seem quite reasonable to assume that removing something that very likely negatively affected health would also improve sleep. Stop eating junk food before bed? Probably better sleep. Stop getting poked with a stick before bed? Probably better sleep. Etc.

Weebs 5y ago

I know this is anecdotal but tools like f.lux made a huge different for me. I grew up with difficulties falling asleep and blue light filters like f.lux made an immediate impact on my ability to fall asleep on time. I was no longer in my teens at the time so that may be a factor

Drew_ 5y ago

The comment you replied to made no mention of blue light, only "ultra high brightness screens" which the research you linked does not disagree with.

herf 5y ago

That is one interesting study in mice, but it goes against many in humans, so I wouldn't use the word "debunked" in this situation. Previous comments are here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21916679 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21916679