3 ms·

The Knights Hospitaller 'accidentally' became a major European air power (2019)

23 points by dane-pgp 5y ago

dane-pgp 5y ago
> So, in the aftermath of WW2, this is the ballet that happens: The Italians transfer all of their support and training aircraft to the Knights. This then frees up the 'cap room' to allow the US to boost Italy's warfighting ability WITHOUT breaking the WW2 peace treaty. I can't help imagining the US and Poland employing a similar trick now for providing MiGs to Ukraine. The added complication seems to be the issue of where the MiGs take off from, and I don't think the SMOM are in possession of any airfields, but the Polish pilots could land them (unarmed) at a Swedish civilian airport, where the Polish ambassador could be waiting to sign some paperwork with a representative of the SMOM, who would then sell the jets for a nominal fee to the Ukrainian ambassador. Then some Ukrainian pilots could get in and fly them back to Ukraine.
- mariuolo 5y ago
  > Polish pilots could land them (unarmed) at a Swedish civilian airport Sweden doesn't even want to consider joining NATO at the moment, do you think they would be up for such a diplomatic sleight of hand?
  - dane-pgp 5y ago
    Yes? It would be a way to show support while justifying their non-NATO status. Also, since they don't actually share a border with Russia, they are not at immediate risk of invasion, unlike Finland. In any case, there are plenty of non-NATO countries that might be willing to facilitate the exchange, depending on how far the range of a MiG is, and where it can refuel.
    - dragonwriter 5y ago
      Retaliation isn't limited to ground invasion. Plus, no one actually wants to send the planes, the whole dance was over who was going to take the diplomatic hit over saying no to Ukraine.
      - dane-pgp 5y ago
        If Putin is going to attack Sweden for letting two countries make a financial transaction at a Swedish airport, then countries should also be too afraid to sanction Russia. There are, unfortunately, two possible extremes when faced with a nuclear armed tyrant: Firstly, you could decide that they are not crazy enough to destroy the world, so they wouldn't launch nukes just because you implemented a no fly zone in a territory where they are operating (i.e. you shot down their aircraft). The other extreme is that you tread on eggshells, trying not to do anything that might trigger a response, so as not to "escalate" things. That's arguably the approach Germany took when it only offered helmets to Ukraine, which obviously failed to prevent an escalation. Now Germany is sending weapons to Ukraine, and doesn't seem to have suffered any unbearable consequences, although maybe Sweden would do, as it doesn't have the protection that Article 5 offers.

23 points by dane-pgp 5y ago

> So, in the aftermath of WW2, this is the ballet that happens: The Italians transfer all of their support and training aircraft to the Knights. This then frees up the 'cap room' to allow the US to boost Italy's warfighting ability WITHOUT breaking the WW2 peace treaty. I can't help imagining the US and Poland employing a similar trick now for providing MiGs to Ukraine. The added complication seems to be the issue of where the MiGs take off from, and I don't think the SMOM are in possession of any airfields, but the Polish pilots could land them (unarmed) at a Swedish civilian airport, where the Polish ambassador could be waiting to sign some paperwork with a representative of the SMOM, who would then sell the jets for a nominal fee to the Ukrainian ambassador. Then some Ukrainian pilots could get in and fly them back to Ukraine.

mariuolo 5y ago
> Polish pilots could land them (unarmed) at a Swedish civilian airport Sweden doesn't even want to consider joining NATO at the moment, do you think they would be up for such a diplomatic sleight of hand?
- dane-pgp 5y ago
  Yes? It would be a way to show support while justifying their non-NATO status. Also, since they don't actually share a border with Russia, they are not at immediate risk of invasion, unlike Finland. In any case, there are plenty of non-NATO countries that might be willing to facilitate the exchange, depending on how far the range of a MiG is, and where it can refuel.
  - dragonwriter 5y ago
    Retaliation isn't limited to ground invasion. Plus, no one actually wants to send the planes, the whole dance was over who was going to take the diplomatic hit over saying no to Ukraine.
    - dane-pgp 5y ago
      If Putin is going to attack Sweden for letting two countries make a financial transaction at a Swedish airport, then countries should also be too afraid to sanction Russia. There are, unfortunately, two possible extremes when faced with a nuclear armed tyrant: Firstly, you could decide that they are not crazy enough to destroy the world, so they wouldn't launch nukes just because you implemented a no fly zone in a territory where they are operating (i.e. you shot down their aircraft). The other extreme is that you tread on eggshells, trying not to do anything that might trigger a response, so as not to "escalate" things. That's arguably the approach Germany took when it only offered helmets to Ukraine, which obviously failed to prevent an escalation. Now Germany is sending weapons to Ukraine, and doesn't seem to have suffered any unbearable consequences, although maybe Sweden would do, as it doesn't have the protection that Article 5 offers.