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You seem to have the idea that we would make it illegal to write any kind of code if you were not a licensed professional. That's a pretty glaring strawman that
by cormacrelf 5y ago
You seem to have the idea that we would make it illegal to write any kind of code if you were not a licensed professional. That's a pretty glaring strawman that you have already dismissed by bringing up autonomous robot heart surgery.
You pretty much start with the most important stuff, exactly as you suggested. That's what the market wants. See this history of engineering licensure (https://www.nspe.org/sites/default/files/resources/pdfs/pemagazine/june2007_the_professional_engineering.pdf https://www.nspe.org/sites/default/files/resources/pdfs/pema...): It was originally enacted to stop lawyers and random people claiming to certify the design of huge infrastructure projects for dams and irrigation, where the consequences of failure would be flooding huge areas, causing immeasurable damage. For the same reasons, if you're building dams or nuclear power control systems etc today, I imagine you'd be looking for a similar licensing system. Maybe you would simply use the licensing systems that already exist.
The rest of your comment sounds a bit like "it is oppression of my creativity when I build bridges that are made out of four thousand spoons tied together with craft glue and the NTSB says I am largely to blame for it falling on a pedestrian". It is obvious this far into the discipline's history that some things are good ideas and some things aren't, and it is possible to say that if your new 6-week-coding-bootcamp hire doesn't know anything about password hashing you should not give them the job of rewriting the login page. Nobody cares if you write it in Haskell, nobody's trying to draft statewide RIIR legislation, and you are KIDDING yourself if you think that your rebellion against enterprise-y procedural-ish stuff is more important than not letting Russian hackers steal all of your users' sensitive data and sell them to others who will blackmail them for more cash.
The market forces are in favour of accrediting the people who work on systems that are important to avoiding pretty dramatic harms, and even death and destruction. People aren't dumb and will eventually wise up enough about the shoddy work that gets done to start suing engineers behind data breaches for negligence (more). You're here proving the article's point by not taking this profession seriously enough to see that even a limited licensing scheme could be warranted.
- nonrandomstring 5y agoAs probably the only person here who actually did make autonomous remote heart surgery code (Ada), very early in my career as a novice, I disagree with the idea of licensing _programmers_. What is needed is licenses for those who _deploy_ software in critical applications. They should be audited to hell and back and face catastrophic liability for failure. We already are moving there, creating a small number of well paid, highly skilled senior positions who have 40+ years in software and full ISO9000/27000. It's a chartered quality assurance role that overlaps cyber-security/safety and resilience engineering. And we must remember, that despite construction work being regulated to the hilt, we still got the "cladding scandal" and Grenfell Tower fire in the UK. Software "safety inspection", where appropriate, must also be a thing.
- cormacrelf 5y agoThat's why engineers have tiered systems where a number of unlicensed people can do the work, but a licensed one has to sign off on the work. Proposing similar licensing schemes to those in civil engineering basically means "do that". Nobody's interested in restricting access to Vim and python.exe to only the most learned and wise. This is why I framed the discussion about password hashing as being about a senior getting what amounts to an intern to do incredibly sensitive work without oversight. Something the article did poorly is its analogy between software engineers and solo tradespeople. That's the wrong end. There is very little danger in having solo software engineers working unlicensed; they're out there making Wordpress websites and apps that are also basically information websites. Solo tradespeople are doing electrical work that might start a fire and kill a family. There is a big difference at the low end and it is bad to compare those two classes of worker.