7 ms·

Idk if this is a good thing or a bad thing, but a browser is one of those things where I simply am not comfortable trying out options that aren't big or well kn

by d3nj4l 5y ago

Idk if this is a good thing or a bad thing, but a browser is one of those things where I simply am not comfortable trying out options that aren't big or well known. At this point, the browser is essentially a window into my entire life, and I do things like check my bank balance on it. While Google isn't a trustworthy company by any means, I can be reasonably certain they aren't looking into what I'm doing. So trying out a new, closed source browser - even if it is as great as everyone makes it seem - is a bit too much for me.

kkjjkgjjgg 5y ago
Did you mean to say "I can be reasonably certain they are looking into what I'm doing"?
- d3nj4l 5y ago
  That's funny, but Google has extremely powerful incentives to not snoop on me while I check my bank balance.
  - hansel_der 5y ago
    like what?
    - d3nj4l 5y ago
      Chrome's entire reason for existing is that Google wants control over the client, so they can control the capabilities of the web. If they are snooping on the data of webpages or what you type, they will lose that. Also the fact that millions of eyeballs are on it, including security researchers who would be more than happy to report it.
      - ipaddr 5y ago
        They are doing it now. Maybe this comment needs to go back to 2011 when no one knew better.
      - gigel82 5y ago
        There are dozens of "phone home" features in Chrome that by default leak everything from what you type to every single url you visit. Check out https://github.com/Eloston/ungoogled-chromium https://github.com/Eloston/ungoogled-chromium to see the extent of patching they need to do to shut some of those pipes off.
  - kkjjkgjjgg 5y ago
    Are they committed to not snooping, or just to trying to not do something too outrageous or obvious with the data they gather?
  - mekster 5y ago
    If your definition of being snooped on is whether confidential information is leaked or nothing is happening, that is short sighted. Google analytics is ubiquitous and you're tracked to your bones especially if you're logged into your Google account and while they don't read your Gmail email content, they put you in the social graph according to any email address or URL in your email and they have better idea about your past more than you do. I still use Google search as there aren't better alternatives but I never use Gmail nor Chrome as I have plenty of alternatives for those.
    - d3nj4l 5y ago
      I'm not happy about tracking (I personally use Firefox + uBlock) but with the state of the web as is, I'll settle for the browser not stealing confidential info, thanks.
    - d110af5ccf 5y ago
      > while they don't read your Gmail email content Depends on what you mean by "read". Google (and MS, and likely others) certainly parse the content. For example pulling out times for upcoming flights you've booked without you needing to click into the email. Obviously I have no way to know if they actually do anything else internally with the result of parsing. I have to assume that they do though.
hansel_der 5y ago
> While Google isn't a trustworthy company by any means, I can be reasonably certain they aren't looking into what I'm doing. I'd take it for granted that google is sucking up every bit they can get from you.
- d3nj4l 5y ago
  Like my bank balance? If you have proof of that, I'd love to see it.
  - sam0x17 5y ago
    They can literally deduce it from all your invoice and payment confirmation emails for every online thing you've ever got + bank statements.
  - prohobo 5y ago
    They probably don't need to, and can profile your economic status through indirect means. Not that I know they're doing that, just that they definitely can get the gist of what and how you're doing with their tracking algorithms.
    - idontwantthis 5y ago
      If you don't think there's a big difference between "indirect means" and literally examining bank records then please try this new browser I just invented.
  - stavros 5y ago
    Do you get statements by email?
    - cpach 5y ago
      Are there banks that send out statements by email…? If so… wow.
      - 5y ago
CJefferson 5y ago
I agree -- also, in my (limited) experience, keeping a modern browser up to date security-wise is a major undertaking. They talk about forking WebKit -- how well are they doing at keeping that fork up to date, when 0-days appear worryingly often in modern browsers?
- Cannabat 5y ago
  Orion is usually ahead of Safari as it has a much faster release cycle and uses the latest Webkit version. I understand there was a bug in a recent webkit release so Orion rolled back to the previous webkit release - but besides situations like this, Orion uses the current webkit.
coffeeblack 5y ago
And the same applies to browser extensions.
1vuio0pswjnm7 5y ago
Thought experiment: What if there was one browser to use for the "serious" interactions with the web and another, or several, to use for non-serious, recreational uses of the web. The later might not even be a browser, it might, e.g., be a small utility to download content that can be consumed offline. Arguably the title hints at this idea with its inclusion of the adjective "main". This is not a thought experiment for me. I have actually approached the web this way for many years now. Using a single program for 100% of web use has become unthinkable.
- bityard 5y ago
  I am in 100% agreement. The best tools have enough power and flexibility built-in that they end up serving use cases that the authors never dreamed of. Meanwhile, these days when developers attempt to write a piece of software that's everything to everyone, they only end up satisfying the most basic possible use cases because anything more would cause distraction and/or intimidate the users away from their product. Those who want to actually harness the power of what's possible with software are left out. If Vim and Emacs were released as new projects today, most of HN would roll their eyes and complain that neither is "opinionated" or "minimal" enough to rely on for serious work, and let's not even get started on the lack of built-in GPU accelerated text rendering...
- 1vuio0pswjnm7 5y ago
  "("using the API of local services" seems to be an ongoing theme, one of my favourite things is to use secret undocumented APIs where you need to copy your cookies out of the browser to get access to them)" The aboove is from another submission's comment thread currently on HN front page.^1 Not everything can be done satisfactorily within the browser. Other (smaller) programs are useful. In the later case, the programs are not supported by online advertising. 1. https://jvns.ca/blog/2022/03/08/tiny-programs/ https://jvns.ca/blog/2022/03/08/tiny-programs/
- npteljes 5y ago
  I do something similar. I have a "hardened" main browser for my serious stuff and everyday browsing needs, and I have a Chromium+uBlock install, which I mainly use in Incognito mode, for sites that break in the "hardened" configuration.
maven29 5y ago
A web browser is more than just for webapps. You don't have to use the same web browser for everything. Surely there is a case to be made for a web browser that caters to a need for focused reading, where a quick context switch to logged-in sessions wouldn't be something you would appreciate having. At that point, you wouldn't need much of the fancy javascript served to you, and can trivially cut down on attack surface with minor sacrifice.
lucideer 5y ago
> While Google isn't a trustworthy company by any means, I can be reasonably certain they aren't looking into what I'm doing. In what way are Google not a trustworthy company in your view? Expecting that they'll be looking into what I'm doing is exactly what leads me to consider them untrustworthy so I'm just curious what else you're thinking of.
- stuu99 5y ago
  >In what way are Google not a trustworthy company in your view? Google "snowden nsa revelations" see all the companies sucking up all your data, the NSA and google and all the tech commpanies have removed everyones privacy. It's called "total information awareness".
  - dewey 5y ago
    I thought the outcome of these leaks were that Google realized that the NSA is tapping into their data and dark fiber and started encrypting these?
    - lioeters 5y ago
      Might wanna consider.. https://wikileaks.org/google-is-not-what-it-seems/ https://wikileaks.org/google-is-not-what-it-seems/
- scientism 5y ago
  Adtech and to a large extent Google are untrustworthy by definition. Read above about the Mastercard-Google deal, here is a non-paywall source https://www.warc.com/newsandopinion/news/google-and-mastercards-deal-to-track-sales/en-gb/40976 https://www.warc.com/newsandopinion/news/google-and-masterca... That's only the tip of the iceberg.
freediver 5y ago
Orion solves the question of trust by being a zero telemetry browser by default. If a single byte of unwanted information ever leaves Orion (and this is easily detectable with any network proxy), that would spell the end of Orion's credibility.
samizdis 5y ago
A perfectly reasonable/sensible point. If you're like me, though, and want to test-drive a browser for the hell of it, you might do your banking, shopping, flight reservations etc using your usual browser, and just use Orion for general info/entertainment surfing. A bit like driving an ordinary car for the daily urban grind, but riding a motorbike out in the countryside at the weekend. Edit to add: yes, I realise that Orion wouldn't be your "main" browser, with just the casual usage I envisage, but it could be interesting - and maybe, if it eventually takes off and earns a rep for privacy/security, you (and/or I) might feel sufficiently informed to make the switch. I guess I feel that the browser space lacks choice/variety atm.
- imbnwa 5y ago
  This is exactly what I do

by d3nj4l 5y ago

kkjjkgjjgg 5y ago

Did you mean to say "I can be reasonably certain they are looking into what I'm doing"?

d3nj4l 5y ago
That's funny, but Google has extremely powerful incentives to not snoop on me while I check my bank balance.
- hansel_der 5y ago
  like what?
  - d3nj4l 5y ago
    Chrome's entire reason for existing is that Google wants control over the client, so they can control the capabilities of the web. If they are snooping on the data of webpages or what you type, they will lose that. Also the fact that millions of eyeballs are on it, including security researchers who would be more than happy to report it.
    - ipaddr 5y ago
      They are doing it now. Maybe this comment needs to go back to 2011 when no one knew better.
    - gigel82 5y ago
      There are dozens of "phone home" features in Chrome that by default leak everything from what you type to every single url you visit. Check out https://github.com/Eloston/ungoogled-chromium https://github.com/Eloston/ungoogled-chromium to see the extent of patching they need to do to shut some of those pipes off.
- kkjjkgjjgg 5y ago
  Are they committed to not snooping, or just to trying to not do something too outrageous or obvious with the data they gather?
- mekster 5y ago
  If your definition of being snooped on is whether confidential information is leaked or nothing is happening, that is short sighted. Google analytics is ubiquitous and you're tracked to your bones especially if you're logged into your Google account and while they don't read your Gmail email content, they put you in the social graph according to any email address or URL in your email and they have better idea about your past more than you do. I still use Google search as there aren't better alternatives but I never use Gmail nor Chrome as I have plenty of alternatives for those.
  - d3nj4l 5y ago
    I'm not happy about tracking (I personally use Firefox + uBlock) but with the state of the web as is, I'll settle for the browser not stealing confidential info, thanks.
  - d110af5ccf 5y ago
    > while they don't read your Gmail email content Depends on what you mean by "read". Google (and MS, and likely others) certainly parse the content. For example pulling out times for upcoming flights you've booked without you needing to click into the email. Obviously I have no way to know if they actually do anything else internally with the result of parsing. I have to assume that they do though.

hansel_der 5y ago

> While Google isn't a trustworthy company by any means, I can be reasonably certain they aren't looking into what I'm doing. I'd take it for granted that google is sucking up every bit they can get from you.

d3nj4l 5y ago
Like my bank balance? If you have proof of that, I'd love to see it.
- sam0x17 5y ago
  They can literally deduce it from all your invoice and payment confirmation emails for every online thing you've ever got + bank statements.
- prohobo 5y ago
  They probably don't need to, and can profile your economic status through indirect means. Not that I know they're doing that, just that they definitely can get the gist of what and how you're doing with their tracking algorithms.
  - idontwantthis 5y ago
    If you don't think there's a big difference between "indirect means" and literally examining bank records then please try this new browser I just invented.
- stavros 5y ago
  Do you get statements by email?
  - cpach 5y ago
    Are there banks that send out statements by email…? If so… wow.
    - 5y ago

CJefferson 5y ago

I agree -- also, in my (limited) experience, keeping a modern browser up to date security-wise is a major undertaking. They talk about forking WebKit -- how well are they doing at keeping that fork up to date, when 0-days appear worryingly often in modern browsers?

Cannabat 5y ago
Orion is usually ahead of Safari as it has a much faster release cycle and uses the latest Webkit version. I understand there was a bug in a recent webkit release so Orion rolled back to the previous webkit release - but besides situations like this, Orion uses the current webkit.

coffeeblack 5y ago

And the same applies to browser extensions.

1vuio0pswjnm7 5y ago

Thought experiment: What if there was one browser to use for the "serious" interactions with the web and another, or several, to use for non-serious, recreational uses of the web. The later might not even be a browser, it might, e.g., be a small utility to download content that can be consumed offline. Arguably the title hints at this idea with its inclusion of the adjective "main". This is not a thought experiment for me. I have actually approached the web this way for many years now. Using a single program for 100% of web use has become unthinkable.

bityard 5y ago
I am in 100% agreement. The best tools have enough power and flexibility built-in that they end up serving use cases that the authors never dreamed of. Meanwhile, these days when developers attempt to write a piece of software that's everything to everyone, they only end up satisfying the most basic possible use cases because anything more would cause distraction and/or intimidate the users away from their product. Those who want to actually harness the power of what's possible with software are left out. If Vim and Emacs were released as new projects today, most of HN would roll their eyes and complain that neither is "opinionated" or "minimal" enough to rely on for serious work, and let's not even get started on the lack of built-in GPU accelerated text rendering...
1vuio0pswjnm7 5y ago
"("using the API of local services" seems to be an ongoing theme, one of my favourite things is to use secret undocumented APIs where you need to copy your cookies out of the browser to get access to them)" The aboove is from another submission's comment thread currently on HN front page.^1 Not everything can be done satisfactorily within the browser. Other (smaller) programs are useful. In the later case, the programs are not supported by online advertising. 1. https://jvns.ca/blog/2022/03/08/tiny-programs/ https://jvns.ca/blog/2022/03/08/tiny-programs/
npteljes 5y ago
I do something similar. I have a "hardened" main browser for my serious stuff and everyday browsing needs, and I have a Chromium+uBlock install, which I mainly use in Incognito mode, for sites that break in the "hardened" configuration.

maven29 5y ago

A web browser is more than just for webapps. You don't have to use the same web browser for everything. Surely there is a case to be made for a web browser that caters to a need for focused reading, where a quick context switch to logged-in sessions wouldn't be something you would appreciate having. At that point, you wouldn't need much of the fancy javascript served to you, and can trivially cut down on attack surface with minor sacrifice.

lucideer 5y ago

> While Google isn't a trustworthy company by any means, I can be reasonably certain they aren't looking into what I'm doing. In what way are Google not a trustworthy company in your view? Expecting that they'll be looking into what I'm doing is exactly what leads me to consider them untrustworthy so I'm just curious what else you're thinking of.

stuu99 5y ago
>In what way are Google not a trustworthy company in your view? Google "snowden nsa revelations" see all the companies sucking up all your data, the NSA and google and all the tech commpanies have removed everyones privacy. It's called "total information awareness".
- dewey 5y ago
  I thought the outcome of these leaks were that Google realized that the NSA is tapping into their data and dark fiber and started encrypting these?
  - lioeters 5y ago
    Might wanna consider.. https://wikileaks.org/google-is-not-what-it-seems/ https://wikileaks.org/google-is-not-what-it-seems/
scientism 5y ago
Adtech and to a large extent Google are untrustworthy by definition. Read above about the Mastercard-Google deal, here is a non-paywall source https://www.warc.com/newsandopinion/news/google-and-mastercards-deal-to-track-sales/en-gb/40976 https://www.warc.com/newsandopinion/news/google-and-masterca... That's only the tip of the iceberg.

freediver 5y ago

Orion solves the question of trust by being a zero telemetry browser by default. If a single byte of unwanted information ever leaves Orion (and this is easily detectable with any network proxy), that would spell the end of Orion's credibility.

samizdis 5y ago

A perfectly reasonable/sensible point. If you're like me, though, and want to test-drive a browser for the hell of it, you might do your banking, shopping, flight reservations etc using your usual browser, and just use Orion for general info/entertainment surfing. A bit like driving an ordinary car for the daily urban grind, but riding a motorbike out in the countryside at the weekend. Edit to add: yes, I realise that Orion wouldn't be your "main" browser, with just the casual usage I envisage, but it could be interesting - and maybe, if it eventually takes off and earns a rep for privacy/security, you (and/or I) might feel sufficiently informed to make the switch. I guess I feel that the browser space lacks choice/variety atm.

imbnwa 5y ago
This is exactly what I do