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I've been thinking about how to get through to more Russian people, and its something I've had a lot of success doing with many people that live in an alternate

I've been thinking about how to get through to more Russian people, and its something I've had a lot of success doing with many people that live in an alternate reality, where we cannot even agree on perception. Censorship and speech restrictions aside, many Russians really think this is a peacekeeping mission that has no bloodshed. Adding to frustration of Ukrainian residents calling their own family members in Russia about whats going on, and still get denial in response. One thing I've been thinking about doing is... agreeing with them? Call it a "special military operation", and then tell them it's not working. The world is reacting to the special military operation. The timing of the special military operation is not in Russia's favor and its causing more harm than benefit, in both Russia and in Ukraine. The semantics are designed to derail the conversation at the beginning. "Ah we're being bombed indiscriminately in this war of russian aggression", the Russian's immediate reaction is "wait, no that's CGI, that's the Ukrainians bombing themselves, its exactly why you need help", instead just play along! "Everything's A-OK but you still need ...... to dismantle your leadership for failing to get more allies in this operation or putting it off until more support was achieved."

dylan604 5y ago
https://www.cnn.com/videos/world/2022/03/09/russia-propaganda-ukraine-war-vladimir-putin-newday-vpx.cnn https://www.cnn.com/videos/world/2022/03/09/russia-propagand... Hearing how a dad trusts the state TV vs what his own son is telling him is actually going on is pretty telling.
- vmception 5y ago
  Interesting, he says a lot of words I used. Thanks for sharing that. Its the same with my friends in America with family in Russia. It must be a cultural thing to immediately go to "okay we're never talking again" because I'm seeing that a lot too. Its interesting that the guy in this video was saying he thought of going that way but now thinks to get smart about how to get the message across.
hamstergene 5y ago
After 2011 protests, even before Crimea and this war, I already gave up talking politics with my parents because of unfair difference in amount of exposure: you spend maybe 30 minutes per week dismantling the nonsense in their heads, then the TV spends 6+ hours per week refilling the vessel back full. Propaganda's arguments are not holding because they are credible, in my experience they are easy and take under 3-5 exchanges until the person wiggles and tries to change the topic. Propaganda is holding because quantity beats quality, and in this case by a lot. Real people eventually give up while full-time paid astroturfers stay. But even now, when talking to my parents, one snarky question is often enough to break the confidence. I can't emphasize the word question enough, people never start thinking unless they are asked a question. No need for any lectures, proof links, it does not even have to be a particularly smart question, if you just get them thinking they do all the bullshit-clearing job themselves. That is, until they turn on TV again :( I'm not gonna pretend that I understand how things work, but I have a strong feeling the key is exposure and asking questions, rather than better rhetorics.
- vmception 5y ago
  Along with questions I also pile on absurdities - I take their reality and add more to how it should work - that make them have to explain the canon For example, to flat earthers I would say “gravity works because of the 6 magnetic poles, which we could verify if the UN gunships let us past the ice walls” and theyd be like “exactly, the UN! 6 poles?” and I would keep adlibbing from there until I start questioning my own sources and describing a spherical rotating reality
EVa5I7bHFq9mnYK 5y ago
Power of propaganda is truly terrifying. Many, if not majority, of my American and Israeli acquaintances of Russian origin think that Putin is heroically liberating Ukraine from Nazis. They watch Russian TV channels.
- trhway 5y ago
  Interesting. Nobody of Russian origin i know supports Putin/Russia on that. I wonder if it is age - my circle is mid-age and older (many experienced 198x in USSR), mostly tech workers, and i don't remember any mentioning the Russian TV.
  - EVa5I7bHFq9mnYK 5y ago
    Yup, mine are older and not tech
ordu 5y ago
It wouldn't work. Firstly if brainwashed Russian feels his faith in propagada is shaking he takes a double dose of propagada to feel better. To wake up from propagada is a extremly painful experience, because you are no more a good guy. I went through this eight years ago, I know. Skinner called this 'conditioning': if you felt better from propaganda then you would seek propaganda again. They were conditioned for 10+ years. I saw it recently twice with two different people. I managed to make them to stop arguing and to think. I saw them thinking. But the next day they were even more partisan pro-war jerks than before. And second. "If not Putin then who?" Putin got rid of anyone who might be his successor. And then propaganda used the slogan to consolidate everyone around Putin. So "dismantle your leadership" wouldn't work. The last possible successor (as propaganda painted him) was Navalny. He is in a prison and propaganda did everything it could to drown him in a shit. People believe that if not Putin then Navalny, and they do not like Navalny. The first necessary step to deal with an addiction is to stop abusing drugs or whatever causes it. Reportedly a few weeks without propaganda undo the worst of the brainwashing, and it becomes possible to talk with him/her rationally. Eight years ago I spent a month reading Ukrainian media 20 min per day (while continuing to consume Russian propaganda) to undo the worst, and half a year more to become mostly sane. But I sought truth and consciously pushed myself to an emotional pain, because truth is sacred. Most people do not feel that they are morally obliged to seek truth. While Putin brainwashes Russians they will remain brainwashed. They use propaganda as an antidote to truth, because truth is painful. People are afraid, they would believe anything to be less afraid. I asked my mother what might be so bad if NATO conquered us. It would be no more Putin, wouldn't it be nice? She said that they would kill all Russians. ...

dylan604 5y ago

https://www.cnn.com/videos/world/2022/03/09/russia-propaganda-ukraine-war-vladimir-putin-newday-vpx.cnn https://www.cnn.com/videos/world/2022/03/09/russia-propagand... Hearing how a dad trusts the state TV vs what his own son is telling him is actually going on is pretty telling.

vmception 5y ago
Interesting, he says a lot of words I used. Thanks for sharing that. Its the same with my friends in America with family in Russia. It must be a cultural thing to immediately go to "okay we're never talking again" because I'm seeing that a lot too. Its interesting that the guy in this video was saying he thought of going that way but now thinks to get smart about how to get the message across.

hamstergene 5y ago

After 2011 protests, even before Crimea and this war, I already gave up talking politics with my parents because of unfair difference in amount of exposure: you spend maybe 30 minutes per week dismantling the nonsense in their heads, then the TV spends 6+ hours per week refilling the vessel back full. Propaganda's arguments are not holding because they are credible, in my experience they are easy and take under 3-5 exchanges until the person wiggles and tries to change the topic. Propaganda is holding because quantity beats quality, and in this case by a lot. Real people eventually give up while full-time paid astroturfers stay. But even now, when talking to my parents, one snarky question is often enough to break the confidence. I can't emphasize the word question enough, people never start thinking unless they are asked a question. No need for any lectures, proof links, it does not even have to be a particularly smart question, if you just get them thinking they do all the bullshit-clearing job themselves. That is, until they turn on TV again :( I'm not gonna pretend that I understand how things work, but I have a strong feeling the key is exposure and asking questions, rather than better rhetorics.

vmception 5y ago
Along with questions I also pile on absurdities - I take their reality and add more to how it should work - that make them have to explain the canon For example, to flat earthers I would say “gravity works because of the 6 magnetic poles, which we could verify if the UN gunships let us past the ice walls” and theyd be like “exactly, the UN! 6 poles?” and I would keep adlibbing from there until I start questioning my own sources and describing a spherical rotating reality

EVa5I7bHFq9mnYK 5y ago

Power of propaganda is truly terrifying. Many, if not majority, of my American and Israeli acquaintances of Russian origin think that Putin is heroically liberating Ukraine from Nazis. They watch Russian TV channels.

trhway 5y ago
Interesting. Nobody of Russian origin i know supports Putin/Russia on that. I wonder if it is age - my circle is mid-age and older (many experienced 198x in USSR), mostly tech workers, and i don't remember any mentioning the Russian TV.
- EVa5I7bHFq9mnYK 5y ago
  Yup, mine are older and not tech

ordu 5y ago

It wouldn't work. Firstly if brainwashed Russian feels his faith in propagada is shaking he takes a double dose of propagada to feel better. To wake up from propagada is a extremly painful experience, because you are no more a good guy. I went through this eight years ago, I know. Skinner called this 'conditioning': if you felt better from propaganda then you would seek propaganda again. They were conditioned for 10+ years. I saw it recently twice with two different people. I managed to make them to stop arguing and to think. I saw them thinking. But the next day they were even more partisan pro-war jerks than before. And second. "If not Putin then who?" Putin got rid of anyone who might be his successor. And then propaganda used the slogan to consolidate everyone around Putin. So "dismantle your leadership" wouldn't work. The last possible successor (as propaganda painted him) was Navalny. He is in a prison and propaganda did everything it could to drown him in a shit. People believe that if not Putin then Navalny, and they do not like Navalny. The first necessary step to deal with an addiction is to stop abusing drugs or whatever causes it. Reportedly a few weeks without propaganda undo the worst of the brainwashing, and it becomes possible to talk with him/her rationally. Eight years ago I spent a month reading Ukrainian media 20 min per day (while continuing to consume Russian propaganda) to undo the worst, and half a year more to become mostly sane. But I sought truth and consciously pushed myself to an emotional pain, because truth is sacred. Most people do not feel that they are morally obliged to seek truth. While Putin brainwashes Russians they will remain brainwashed. They use propaganda as an antidote to truth, because truth is painful. People are afraid, they would believe anything to be less afraid. I asked my mother what might be so bad if NATO conquered us. It would be no more Putin, wouldn't it be nice? She said that they would kill all Russians. ...