5 ms·

Huh?

by cr__ 5y ago

Huh?

AutumnCurtain 5y ago
The user in question spends an awful lot of time arguing that the West/Ukraine/NATO/insert current scapegoat of Russian propaganda is the reason why dear sweet Russia just had no choice but to invade.
stavros 5y ago
He's saying the invasion is Ukraine's fault for trying to not get invaded. It's the international politics version of "look what you've done, you made me hit you".
- starkd 5y ago
  No that's not what he's saying. They were led with the promise of NATO/EU membership with no intention to back it up. https://mate.substack.com/p/by-using-ukraine-to-fight-russia?s=r https://mate.substack.com/p/by-using-ukraine-to-fight-russia...
  - astrange 5y ago
    Aaron Maté's journalism consists of reposting things Konstantin Kilimnik told him which is why he's spent the last few years claiming every political story mentioning Russia is fake, they've never hacked the US, etc. If Russia didn't want Ukraine to turn towards the EU, they shouldn't have annexed the parts of Ukraine containing all the citizens who didn't want to do it.
    - ModernMech 5y ago
      > Konstantin Kilimnik Would this be the very same Konstantin Kilimnik who was the Russian Intelligence Officer found by the Special Counsel, US Senate Select Committee on Intelligence, and the US Treasury to have worked with Paul Manafort and the Donald Trump campaign during the 2016 election? Gee, I wonder why Aaron Maté would want to minimize Russia's moral culpability here. Snark aside, I think one of the easier things we can stop doing here in America is stop sharing Russian disinformation from not disinterested bloggers, who have proven themselves to be very very wrong about the nature of Vladimir Putin and the allure of autocracy in general. This whole "Democracy and freedom are incompatible" idea circling techno bubbles needs to end asap.
      - astrange 5y ago
        Yes, but that was kind of a joke so don't read too much into it. (I do remember he reported an anonymous Twitter account wasn't Kilimnik because he DMed them and asked if they were.) The Substackers, I think, mainly moved to those positions on their own because there was space to make money on it, and polemical opinion writers and disinformation agents end up working off each other because it's convenient rather than actually conspiring. Probably.
    - starkd 5y ago
      The article literally starts out condemning the Russia's invasion as illegal. That doesn't mean the West did not bungle this or should be exempt from criticism. When you lead a country with promises of NATO protection, when you KNOW it is going to be provocative, you better be prepared to defend it. The West did not do this and offered no real plan for this circumstance. We shouldn't be afraid to criticize our own government, when it fails.
  - mcbutterbunz 5y ago
    Oh so instead of "look what you've done, you made me hit you", its "look what the US has done, they made me hit you"
- throwaway_1928 5y ago
  Professor John Mearsheimer explained this 7 years ago: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JrMiSQAGOS4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JrMiSQAGOS4
starkd 5y ago
I think he's referring to the Maidan revolution pushed in the region back in 2014. They led them with promises of NATO/EU membership, and then left them hanging when war finally broke out. You can reasonably conclude they had no intention to actually fight it out. https://mate.substack.com/p/by-using-ukraine-to-fight-russia?s=r https://mate.substack.com/p/by-using-ukraine-to-fight-russia...
- edgyquant 5y ago
  It’s cute you blame the west for this. Russia started an asymmetric war with Ukraine specifically because it knew NATO won’t except a new member until they shore up border disputes etc. Again this is the international relations equivalent of beating your wife because she wanted a divorce. It doesn’t make her being beat her fault or her new boyfriends. It’s your fault for beating her up.
  - starkd 5y ago
    It's interesting you read that as blaming the West. The article literally starts out calling the Russian invasion of Ukrain illegal and condemns it unequivocally. That doesn't mean the West's actions were not escalatory. When you lead a country with promises of NATO membership and protection, actions you KNOW will be provocative, you better be prepared to defend it. The West did not do this.
- smsm42 5y ago
  War didn't "break out". It wasn't some natural disaster that just happened with no fault of anybody. Putin waged the war, because he felt he could take Ukraine for himself and nobody would stop him. The evil will of Russian government, determined to deny Ukrainian people the rights to freedom and self-determination, combined with weakness of the West, and continued strategy of appeasement (has it ever worked?), led to it. It's as much "broke out" as you'd say "she left her home without a gun, and a rape broke out".
  - starkd 5y ago
    The West was wholly unprepared for this scenario. Even though they led them to believe NATO would be there for them (without specifically offering it). When you wage a campaign with the intended effect of bringing it into NATO, something you know is going to be provocative, you should be very prepared to defend it. This is a collosal failure of diplomacy.
heavyset_go 5y ago
"Russia needs to protect itself from NATO encroachment" is a common talking point that excuses the attack and implies that Ukraine and/or NATO somehow forced Russia to invade Ukraine.
- edgyquant 5y ago
  It also goes off the assumption that the nations bordering Russia aren’t rational actors or independent polities capable of choosing their own path (or, apparently, being allowed to,)
  - nwienert 5y ago
    So you’re against the Monroe doctrine? Thoughts on the Cuban Missile crisis? Did you see the clip of Biden in the 80s saying the only thing that would turn Russia hostile would be the Baltic states joining NATO? Finally, are you familiar with what happened in 08, 14, and 19, and the clear Russian warnings after each?
    - qaq 5y ago
      Russia is no longer a super power the faster they come too terms with it the better it will be for everyone.
      - nwienert 5y ago
        Might makes right!
    - edgyquant 5y ago
      Whataboutism is the tool of useful idiots. I also don’t give two fucks what Russia “warns” us or anyone about. That literally just proves my point that you and all these other apologists believe that Russia should be the decider of what sovereign nations near them can do. This is the exact reason all these nations beg to join NATO instead of having to be forced into it.

Huh?

by cr__ 5y ago

Huh?

The user in question spends an awful lot of time arguing that the West/Ukraine/NATO/insert current scapegoat of Russian propaganda is the reason why dear sweet Russia just had no choice but to invade.

stavros 5y ago

He's saying the invasion is Ukraine's fault for trying to not get invaded. It's the international politics version of "look what you've done, you made me hit you".

starkd 5y ago
No that's not what he's saying. They were led with the promise of NATO/EU membership with no intention to back it up. https://mate.substack.com/p/by-using-ukraine-to-fight-russia?s=r https://mate.substack.com/p/by-using-ukraine-to-fight-russia...
- astrange 5y ago
  Aaron Maté's journalism consists of reposting things Konstantin Kilimnik told him which is why he's spent the last few years claiming every political story mentioning Russia is fake, they've never hacked the US, etc. If Russia didn't want Ukraine to turn towards the EU, they shouldn't have annexed the parts of Ukraine containing all the citizens who didn't want to do it.
  - ModernMech 5y ago
    > Konstantin Kilimnik Would this be the very same Konstantin Kilimnik who was the Russian Intelligence Officer found by the Special Counsel, US Senate Select Committee on Intelligence, and the US Treasury to have worked with Paul Manafort and the Donald Trump campaign during the 2016 election? Gee, I wonder why Aaron Maté would want to minimize Russia's moral culpability here. Snark aside, I think one of the easier things we can stop doing here in America is stop sharing Russian disinformation from not disinterested bloggers, who have proven themselves to be very very wrong about the nature of Vladimir Putin and the allure of autocracy in general. This whole "Democracy and freedom are incompatible" idea circling techno bubbles needs to end asap.
    - astrange 5y ago
      Yes, but that was kind of a joke so don't read too much into it. (I do remember he reported an anonymous Twitter account wasn't Kilimnik because he DMed them and asked if they were.) The Substackers, I think, mainly moved to those positions on their own because there was space to make money on it, and polemical opinion writers and disinformation agents end up working off each other because it's convenient rather than actually conspiring. Probably.
  - starkd 5y ago
    The article literally starts out condemning the Russia's invasion as illegal. That doesn't mean the West did not bungle this or should be exempt from criticism. When you lead a country with promises of NATO protection, when you KNOW it is going to be provocative, you better be prepared to defend it. The West did not do this and offered no real plan for this circumstance. We shouldn't be afraid to criticize our own government, when it fails.
- mcbutterbunz 5y ago
  Oh so instead of "look what you've done, you made me hit you", its "look what the US has done, they made me hit you"
throwaway_1928 5y ago
Professor John Mearsheimer explained this 7 years ago: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JrMiSQAGOS4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JrMiSQAGOS4

starkd 5y ago

I think he's referring to the Maidan revolution pushed in the region back in 2014. They led them with promises of NATO/EU membership, and then left them hanging when war finally broke out. You can reasonably conclude they had no intention to actually fight it out. https://mate.substack.com/p/by-using-ukraine-to-fight-russia?s=r https://mate.substack.com/p/by-using-ukraine-to-fight-russia...

edgyquant 5y ago
It’s cute you blame the west for this. Russia started an asymmetric war with Ukraine specifically because it knew NATO won’t except a new member until they shore up border disputes etc. Again this is the international relations equivalent of beating your wife because she wanted a divorce. It doesn’t make her being beat her fault or her new boyfriends. It’s your fault for beating her up.
- starkd 5y ago
  It's interesting you read that as blaming the West. The article literally starts out calling the Russian invasion of Ukrain illegal and condemns it unequivocally. That doesn't mean the West's actions were not escalatory. When you lead a country with promises of NATO membership and protection, actions you KNOW will be provocative, you better be prepared to defend it. The West did not do this.
smsm42 5y ago
War didn't "break out". It wasn't some natural disaster that just happened with no fault of anybody. Putin waged the war, because he felt he could take Ukraine for himself and nobody would stop him. The evil will of Russian government, determined to deny Ukrainian people the rights to freedom and self-determination, combined with weakness of the West, and continued strategy of appeasement (has it ever worked?), led to it. It's as much "broke out" as you'd say "she left her home without a gun, and a rape broke out".
- starkd 5y ago
  The West was wholly unprepared for this scenario. Even though they led them to believe NATO would be there for them (without specifically offering it). When you wage a campaign with the intended effect of bringing it into NATO, something you know is going to be provocative, you should be very prepared to defend it. This is a collosal failure of diplomacy.

heavyset_go 5y ago

"Russia needs to protect itself from NATO encroachment" is a common talking point that excuses the attack and implies that Ukraine and/or NATO somehow forced Russia to invade Ukraine.

edgyquant 5y ago
It also goes off the assumption that the nations bordering Russia aren’t rational actors or independent polities capable of choosing their own path (or, apparently, being allowed to,)
- nwienert 5y ago
  So you’re against the Monroe doctrine? Thoughts on the Cuban Missile crisis? Did you see the clip of Biden in the 80s saying the only thing that would turn Russia hostile would be the Baltic states joining NATO? Finally, are you familiar with what happened in 08, 14, and 19, and the clear Russian warnings after each?
  - qaq 5y ago
    Russia is no longer a super power the faster they come too terms with it the better it will be for everyone.
    - nwienert 5y ago
      Might makes right!
  - edgyquant 5y ago
    Whataboutism is the tool of useful idiots. I also don’t give two fucks what Russia “warns” us or anyone about. That literally just proves my point that you and all these other apologists believe that Russia should be the decider of what sovereign nations near them can do. This is the exact reason all these nations beg to join NATO instead of having to be forced into it.